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Milkman · 29-11-2009, 09:38 PM

Interesting topic in Europe in various quarters, according to the different Europeans that I meet and talk with in South East Asia.

This was a vote. It was a referendum.

What's your take?

Quote:

Swiss projected to OK ban on new minarets

Quote:

Right-wing initiative regards mosques’ spires as symbols of militant Islam

A woman walks behind a campaign poster on Nov. 23 in Corseaux, Switzerland, of the far-right Swiss People's Party supporting a ban on the building of new minarests in the country.

View related photos
Fabrice Coffrini / AFP - Getty Imageslent

Nov. 29, 2009

GENEVA - Swiss voters approved a move to ban the construction of minarets in a Sunday vote on a right-wing initiative that labeled the mosque towers as symbols of militant Islam, projections by a widely respected polling institute showed.

The projections based on partial returns say Swiss swung from only 37 percent supporting the proposal a week ago to 59 percent in the actual voting.

Claude Longchamp, leader of the widely respected gfs.bern polling institute, said the projection contracted by state-owned DRS television forecasts approval of the initiative by more than half the country's 26 cantons, meaning it will become a constitutional amendment.

The nationalist Swiss People's Party describes minarets, the distinctive spires used in most countries for calls to prayer, as symbols of rising Muslim political and religious power that could eventually turn Switzerland into an Islamic nation.

Muslims make up about 6 percent of Switzerland's 7.5 million people. Many Swiss Muslims are refugees from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s. Fewer than 13 percent practice their religion, the government says, and Swiss mosques do not broadcast the call to prayer outside their buildings.

"Forced marriages and other things like cemeteries separating the pure and impure — we don't have that in Switzerland, and we do not want to introduce it" said Ulrich Schlueer, co-president of the Initiative Committee to ban minarets.

Broader backlash

The move by the People's Party, the country's largest party in terms of popular support and membership in parliament, is part of a broader European backlash against a growing Muslim population. It has stirred fears of violent reactions in Muslim countries and an economically disastrous boycott by wealthy Muslims who bank, shop and vacation in Switzerland.

Taner Hatipoglu, president of the Federation of Islamic Organizations in Zurich, said, "The initiators have achieved something everyone wanted to prevent, and that is to influence and change the relations to Muslims and their social integration in a negative way."

Hatipoglu said if in the long term the anti-Islam atmosphere continues, "Muslims indeed will not feel safe anymore."

Campaign posters draw objections

The seven-member Cabinet that heads the Swiss government has spoken out strongly against the initiative, and local officials and rights defenders objected to campaign posters showing minarets rising like missiles from the Swiss flag next to a fully veiled woman.

Fabrice Coffrini / AFP - Getty Images

A minaret installed on the roof of aMinarests such as this one on a Turkish cultural center in Wangen bei Olten, northwestern Switzerland, shown last week, would remain even if the referendum passes.

The People's Party has campaigned mainly unsuccessfully in previous years against immigrants with campaign p
osters showing white sheep kicking a black sheep off the Swiss flag and another with brown hands grabbing eagerly for Swiss passports.

The four minarets already attached to mosques in the country are not affected by the initiative.
Geneva's main mosque was vandalized Thursday when someone threw a pot of pink paint at the entrance. Earlier this month, a vehicle with a loudspeaker drove through the area imitating a muezzin's call to prayer, and vandals damaged a mosaic when they threw cobblestones at the building.

Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34191036...d_news-europe/

buriramboy · 29-11-2009, 09:54 PM

The Swiss are a bit mad when it comes to referendums, they have one nearly every other week on something or other.

Marmite the Dog · 29-11-2009, 10:25 PM

It's what the majority want, so fair enough.

Wallalai · 29-11-2009, 10:27 PM

Last news is that the initiative has been accepted, no more minarets in Switzerland.

I'm proud to be Swiss. And f$$$ islam.

larvidchr · 29-11-2009, 11:41 PM

We do not need more religious symbols in the world, just as I think all the almost empty churches should be converted to community centres or library's, in Europe it is essential to stop the Muslims from making small Mekkas everywhere and downplay the importance of that religion in our society, they are welcome if they will accept things as they are, and our laws as the basis for human coexistence, if they can not do that they should stay away.

Ohh yes I forgot well done to the Swiss.

Wallalai · 29-11-2009, 11:50 PM

The detailed map here. Canton by canton (province).

tsr.ch - la carte des votations

Proud that my fellows in canton of Valais has accepted the initiative against minarets by 58%.

Wallalai · 30-11-2009, 12:01 AM

Swiss voters 'back ban on building of minarets' - Times Online

DaffyDuck · 30-11-2009, 12:05 AM

Definitely, a hearty "well done" to the Swiss.

Now let's hope the rest of Europe (particularly the UK) grows some balls and follows suit.

shunpike · 30-11-2009, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

It's what the majority want, so fair enough.

At various times in our history majorities have approved of slavery and genocide, were against one man-one-vote, were both for and against communism and capitalism, and cheered on the Bay City Rollers. Majority does not always give legitimacy.

If someone wants to build a church spire, who am I to tell them not to? Why should architecture be banned?

Milkman · 30-11-2009, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shunpike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

It's what the majority want, so fair enough.

At various times in our history majorities have approved of slavery and genocide, were against one man-one-vote, were both for and against communism and capitalism, and cheered on the Bay City Rollers. Majority does not always give legitimacy.

If someone wants to build a church spire, who am I to tell them not to? Why should architecture be banned?

That all depends on how you look at it.

It's about perception.

When I see a Minaret, I see intolerance. I see narrow-mindedness.

I don't like Churches, Synogogues, or Hindu temples, either. Add the Mormon Temples, too.

The same applies to Islam.

And also...try to build a church in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Iran, Pakistan, or Afghanistan, or even Indonesia - and see what happens.

All religions are exclusive, and not inclusive. Their symbols - I don't want to see.

In public, I should not have to see them.

larvidchr · 30-11-2009, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milkman

Quote:

Originally Posted by shunpike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

It's what the majority want, so fair enough.

At various times in our history majorities have approved of slavery and genocide, were against one man-one-vote, were both for and against communism and capitalism, and cheered on the Bay City Rollers. Majority does not always give legitimacy.

If someone wants to build a church spire, who am I to tell them not to? Why should architecture be banned?

That all depends on how you look at it.

It's about perception.

When I see a Minaret, I see intolerance. I see narrow-mindedness.

I don't like Churches, Synogogues, or Hindu temples, either. Add the Mormon Temples, too.

The same applies to Islam.

And also...try to build a church in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Iran, Pakistan, or Afghanistan, or even Indonesia - and see what happens.

All religions are exclusive, and not inclusive. Their symbols - I don't want to see.

In public, I should not have to see them.

Well said Milk.

shunpike · 30-11-2009, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milkman

Quote:

Originally Posted by shunpike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

It's what the majority want, so fair enough.

At various times in our history majorities have approved of slavery and genocide, were against one man-one-vote, were both for and against communism and capitalism, and cheered on the Bay City Rollers. Majority does not always give legitimacy.

If someone wants to build a church spire, who am I to tell them not to? Why should architecture be banned?

That all depends on how you look at it.

It's about perception.

When I see a Minaret, I see intolerance. I see narrow-mindedness.

I don't like Churches, Synogogues, or Hindu temples, either. Add the Mormon Temples, too.

The same applies to Islam.

And also...try to build a church in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Iran, Pakistan, or Afghanistan, or even Indonesia - and see what happens.

All religions are exclusive, and not inclusive. Their symbols - I don't want to see.

In public, I should not have to see them.

I too am irreligious...I think all religious folks are a touch simple minded, or insecure. Christian church spires offend me, they make me think of intolerance. So who can build which symbols to what? Either be super anal and ban all inspirational architecture, or ban none. Minarets and church spires bug me, but they don't frighten me...build what you want.

The fact that many islamic countries may not allow chruch spires, is all the more reason that we, outside of that narrow world should allow minarets, or Elvis wedding chapels.

Wallalai · 30-11-2009, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shunpike

I too am irreligious...I think all religious folks are a touch simple minded, or insecure. Christian church spires offend me, they make me think of intolerance. So who can build which symbols to what? Either be super anal and ban all inspirational architecture, or ban none. Minarets and church spires bug me, but they don't frighten me...build what you want.

Switzerland is a country of christian tradition, for centuries. Muslims are allowed to build mosquées and pray in peace. But we don't want to see minarets. I don't see where is the problem.

They are allowed to pray, unlike in some islamic countries. The swiss people vote is sovereign, if you don't like it you're free to leave and go live in the sand dunes somewhere in the middles east. Verstanden ?

Wallalai · 30-11-2009, 01:59 AM

And I just want to add we have already many beautiful minarets in my canton (province).

shunpike · 30-11-2009, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallalai

Quote:

Originally Posted by shunpike

I too am irreligious...I think all religious folks are a touch simple minded, or insecure. Christian church spires offend me, they make me think of intolerance. So who can build which symbols to what? Either be super anal and ban all inspirational architecture, or ban none. Minarets and church spires bug me, but they don't frighten me...build what you want.

Switzerland is a country of christian tradition, for centuries. Muslims are allowed to build mosquées and pray in peace. But we don't want to see minarets. I don'r see where is the problem.

They are allowed to pray, unlike in some islamic countries. The swiss people vote is sovereign, if you don't like it you're free to leave and go live in the sand dunes somewhere in the middles east. Verstanden ?

Jawohl, herr gruppendingbat!!

Wallalai · 30-11-2009, 02:05 AM

^ I would hope Oberführer, but it's ok for this time.

I'm bi-lingual french-german, don't be afraid to call me Colonel or General.

shunpike · 30-11-2009, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallalai

^ I would hope Oberfürrer, but it's ok for this time.

Cool, and hey, thanks for all the help fighting intolerance during the second world war...

Wallalai · 30-11-2009, 02:14 AM

I wasn't even born, should I be ashamed myself ?

Don't play this game please.

shunpike · 30-11-2009, 02:25 AM

Sorry...I'm completely neutral on the playing of games...can't help you, as much as I would like too.

Mr Earl · 30-11-2009, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shunpike

Elvis wedding chapels.

The Church Of Elvis.

The one and only true religion. Where infidels rock!

View Poll Results: Switzerland Ban Building of New Minarets
Yes, they should ban new ones	27	75.00%
No, they should not ban, and allow new one to be built	9	25.00%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

29-11-2009, 11:41 PM	#5 (permalink)
larvidchr In transit to Valhalla Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,317	We do not need more religious symbols in the world, just as I think all the almost empty churches should be converted to community centres or library's, in Europe it is essential to stop the Muslims from making small Mekkas everywhere and downplay the importance of that religion in our society, they are welcome if they will accept things as they are, and our laws as the basis for human coexistence, if they can not do that they should stay away. Ohh yes I forgot well done to the Swiss. __________________ " I have been destined to go through life and not around it" Robert Frost. Last edited by larvidchr : 29-11-2009 at 11:52 PM.

29-11-2009, 11:50 PM	#6 (permalink)
Wallalai Valaisan de souche Last Online: Yesterday 11:14 PM Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Moo 2 Posts: 2,767	The detailed map here. Canton by canton (province). tsr.ch - la carte des votations Proud that my fellows in canton of Valais has accepted the initiative against minarets by 58%. Last edited by Wallalai : 29-11-2009 at 11:56 PM.

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29-11-2009, 09:54 PM	#2 (permalink)
buriramboy Thailand Expat Last Online: Yesterday 11:43 PM Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northwich, Cheshire Posts: 2,549	The Swiss are a bit mad when it comes to referendums, they have one nearly every other week on something or other.

29-11-2009, 10:25 PM	#3 (permalink)
Marmite the Dog ผู้เชี่ยวชาญเปล่า Last Online: Yesterday 08:12 PM Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Simian Islands Posts: 31,465	It's what the majority want, so fair enough.

29-11-2009, 10:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
Wallalai Valaisan de souche Last Online: Yesterday 11:14 PM Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Moo 2 Posts: 2,767	Last news is that the initiative has been accepted, no more minarets in Switzerland. I'm proud to be Swiss. And f$$$ islam.

30-11-2009, 12:01 AM	#7 (permalink)
Wallalai Valaisan de souche Last Online: Yesterday 11:14 PM Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Moo 2 Posts: 2,767	Swiss voters 'back ban on building of minarets' - Times Online

30-11-2009, 12:05 AM	#8 (permalink)
DaffyDuck Fluff & Fold Last Online: Yesterday 03:22 PM Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,923	Definitely, a hearty "well done" to the Swiss. Now let's hope the rest of Europe (particularly the UK) grows some balls and follows suit.

30-11-2009, 01:59 AM	#14 (permalink)
Wallalai Valaisan de souche Last Online: Yesterday 11:14 PM Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Moo 2 Posts: 2,767	And I just want to add we have already many beautiful minarets in my canton (province).

30-11-2009, 02:05 AM	#16 (permalink)
Wallalai Valaisan de souche Last Online: Yesterday 11:14 PM Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Moo 2 Posts: 2,767	^ I would hope Oberführer, but it's ok for this time. I'm bi-lingual french-german, don't be afraid to call me Colonel or General.

30-11-2009, 02:14 AM	#18 (permalink)
Wallalai Valaisan de souche Last Online: Yesterday 11:14 PM Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Moo 2 Posts: 2,767	I wasn't even born, should I be ashamed myself ? Don't play this game please.

30-11-2009, 02:25 AM	#19 (permalink)
shunpike Koh Phangan Last Online: Yesterday 10:51 PM Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: BKK Posts: 631	Sorry...I'm completely neutral on the playing of games...can't help you, as much as I would like too.

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