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Storekeeper · 17-05-2006, 02:02 PM

One Very Busy Fascist Dictator

Our unfriendly fascist fiend in Venezuela has been one very busy boy lately. I’m reminded more and more every day of Benito Mussolini when I look at this cretin and watch his mad takeover of Venezuela. The peasants down there see improvements mainly due to this dictator grabbing property and socializing everything into what will eventually become a communist dictatorship. History has recorded that the Nazis made the trains run on time too while they were grabbing power. Chavez is no different. First he goes to Cuba and stirs up the rabble with a venomous anti-democracy tirade ...

Chavez Points To Socialism As The Only Way to Stop Barbarism
May 14, 2006

HAVANA (CUBAN NEWS AGENCY-ACN)

Socialism is the only way to thwart barbarism and bring the humankind to a turning point in its fateful history, said Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez in London, Sunday, May 14. Chavez spoke during an encounter with British personalities and groups who support the Venezuelan government. The meeting was held in the Camden Center in North London, reported Prensa Latina news agency.

“Let’s take on socialism; let’s debate it and build it. I believe that its mistakes were in the economic analysis, there should be social praxis, and 21st century socialism should be based on solid human values,” he stressed. “We are facing the threat of global challenges stemming from the genocidal, immoral, sick, and corrupt elite currently governing the United States, which appear to have no limits,” he added.

The Venezuelan president warned about Washington’s threats against Iran and he said that if that aggression materializes, oil prices could reach 100 dollars a barrel. “The outcome of such aggression is unknown, but the Empire is going to find itself inPa worse position than the one they have currently in Iraq, where they do not know what to do with the civil war that has erupted there and can’t find a way out,” he noted.

Chavez called US President George W. Bush a murderer, guilty of genocide, who supposedly fights terrorism, while his country is a sanctuary of terrorists.

Marmite the Dog · 17-05-2006, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

“Let’s take on socialism; let’s debate it and build it. I believe that its mistakes were in the economic analysis, there should be social praxis, and 21st century socialism should be based on solid human values,” he stressed. “We are facing the threat of global challenges stemming from the genocidal, immoral, sick, and corrupt elite currently governing the United States, which appear to have no limits,” he added.

One can't really comment on that until we know how he's going to implement 21st century socialism. Looking at what he's done so far, he seems to be going in the right direction.

Outcast: This is the Venezuela thread, not the Iran thread, but I wouldn't trust a muslim country with nuclear capabilities as only one (at a push; Turkey) has displayed responsiblity to its citizens or to being part of the world community. The bulk of the people of Iran may well be fine people, but their government isn't, and that is what they are judged upon, just as Americans are judged upon the negative actions of their governments over the years.

stroller · 17-05-2006, 08:41 PM

Well, Chavez talks a lot of sense, I'll reserve judgement when I see further results of his policies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

One Very Busy Fascist Dictator

Our unfriendly fascist fiend in Venezuela has been one very busy boy lately. I’m reminded more and more every day of Benito Mussolini when I look at this cretin and watch his mad takeover of Venezuela. The peasants down there see improvements mainly due to this dictator grabbing property and socializing everything into what will eventually become a communist dictatorship. History has recorded that the Nazis made the trains run on time too while they were grabbing power. Chavez is no different. First he goes to Cuba and stirs up the rabble with a venomous anti-democracy tirade ...

Let's have a look at this comment:
It starts off with "Our unfriendly fascist fiend.." which sets the tone. Unfriendly towards who, and whose fiend, one might ask?

"grabbing property" - does he grab it for himself and his cronies, or has it perhaps something to do with an effort to reduce exploitation, and other weird socialist concepts?
"socialising everything" - sounds good to me if the peasants benefit from it, do you have some examples?

"...will eventually become a communist dictatorship." - Do you mean like this:"“Let’s take on socialism; let’s debate it and build it. I believe that its mistakes were in the economic analysis, there should be social praxis, and 21st century socialism should be based on solid human values,” - sorry, this doesn't sound like a "dictatorship" to me, but I am not as familiar with Chavez as you seem to be. Please elaborate further.

"the Nazis made the train run in time" - yeah, amongst other things. How does this relate to "socialising everything"?

"Chavez is no different" - examples, please.

Butterfly · 17-05-2006, 09:04 PM

Aren't Chinese communist ? why aren't they a threat ?

Milkman · 17-05-2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Aren't Chinese communist ? why aren't they a threat ?

The governmental structure can be called "communist" but this is in name only.

In 'Nam,

There is a structure of a Politburo, and a Central Committee.

PM and General Secretary.

There is also the concept of "Democratic Centralism," which is slowly eroding.

Governmental structure - does not equal - economy.

Butterfly · 17-05-2006, 11:29 PM

I think you missed the sarcasm in my post. Very much aware of that. What I was refering to was the constant labelling by the US media or the Chavez ennemies. The labels these days doesn't mean anything and China is a perfect example. The US is more socialist that China these days.

attaboy · 18-05-2006, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stroller

Well, Chavez talks a lot of sense, I'll reserve judgement when I see further results of his policies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

One Very Busy Fascist Dictator

"Chavez is no different" - examples, please.

Chavez's Blacklist of Venezuelan Opposition Intimidates Voters
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=abASlsAyXgoE&refer=news_inde x

People who signed a petition for his recall are blacklisted. There's your Joseph McCarthy for you.

Quote:

Venezuela's coffee industry in chaos as price of beans doubles

· Shortages in shops after producers hoard stocks
· National Guard told to find every last kilogram

In response, President Chávez has said that he might be forced to nationalise the coffee industry.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/...683002,00.html

Quote:

Venezuelanalysis.com reported on March 29 that the mayor of Greater Caracas, Juan Barreto, has announced that the city will confiscate some 400 buildings and sell them to the people currently renting apartments within them.

“All good rented buildings that were constructed between 10 and 30 years ago, or longer and of which the sum of the rental contributions has been, when totalled up, more than five times the value of the building, [will be] expropriated”, Barreto told Union Radio. “The business of renting is legitimate, but it can’t be indefinite because eventually it becomes predatory.”

Chavez added, “Many people are owners of a number of houses, for example, five homes, because they are people who dedicate themselves to acquiring homes” with the intention of making a profit on the housing market. “If someone refuses to sell, except at a fabulous price, somewhere in the stratosphere, we will expropriate, and pay the real value.”

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2006/663/663p15c.htm

Commerce grinds to a standstill while people wait to see what comes next. People won't rent their apartments, they hoard personal supplies and they withhold inventory from the market. It generates shortages in food and housing. Business needs stability so it can plan and allocate resources for the present and the future. Chavez as usual has purposely generated instability and uncertainty in order to maintain the upper hand. He sees governing as war with enemies everywhere. Individual and corporate wealth and investment is leaving the country. As the resources of the private sector dwindle within the country greater government intervention becomes "justified". So generating ruin works for him. Maybe he invisions some sort of phoenix rising from the ashes. The guy is a romantic who is concentrating power.

I don't see how he is any differnet. He's a thug who uses the mob to intimidate the middle class and the rich. He generates a carnival atmosphere which he must keep feeding with greater stunts to entertain the mob else they get bored and turn on him.

Quote:

A Venezuelan-linked company called Smartmatic has bought out a U.S. electronic voting device firm called Sequoia, which holds contracts for elections in Chicago and elsewhere.

http://www.americanthinker.com/comme...mments_id=4814
More antics. Being able to spread the rumor that he can fk with the elections of the USA (supported by the truth of owning voting machines) would play well in the surreal carnival atmosphere he has created down there.

A picture of the Minister of Defense. What party spirit. He dresses like it's carnival. Dije que hace fiesta!

Quote:

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL PRESS RELEASE

Venezuela: Human rights under threat

All parties involved in the political conflict in Venezuela must show real commitment to respecting the rule of law if they are to break the violence cycle. In a new report launched today, Amnesty International highlights cases of excessive use of force, torture and ill-treatment committed by security forces in the context of demonstrations that took place between February and March 2004 and raises serious questions about the commitment of key institutions to prevent and punish such abuses impartially.

At least 14 people died in these demonstrations in circumstances that have yet to be clarified. As many as 200 were wounded. Several of those detained were severely ill-treated or tortured by members of the security forces.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530082004

Quote:

Human Rights Watch does not take sides in the current political conflict in Venezuela. Our commitment is solely to the protection of fundamental human rights enshrined in international treaties such as the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other, Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the American Convention on Human Rights, which categorically prohibit torture under any circumstances. As a party to both of these treaties, Venezuela has an obligation not only to prevent violations, but also to conduct thorough and impartial investigations, and to prosecute those found responsible for committing them.

Over the past several weeks, Human Rights Watch has collected testimony regarding alleged ill-treatment and torture that took place from February 27 until March 5. The cases described below are based on Human Rights Watch’s interviews with young people who were detained during the protests and, in one case, with a detainee’s parents. Venezuelan nongovernmental human rights groups have also documented similar abuses, as have press accounts based on interviews with former detainees. Altogether, the available information suggests a disturbing pattern of conduct that clearly violates international law enforcement standards.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/12/venezu8423.htm

Marmite the Dog · 18-05-2006, 12:40 AM

Hmmm, not very biased sources there...

Get one from Autie Beeb and I'll take it seriously.

stroller · 18-05-2006, 01:03 AM

Thanks attaboy.

Still, your quotes make him look like yet another South-American dictator with a different twist, not comparable to the nazis as suggested.

Interesting that the US media and admin focus so much on him, could the reason be because he's an "enemy", unlike the other dictators who have been sponsored and supported by the US?

I don't say this to distract from the human rights issues which are raised and documented by reliable sources and he loses a lot of sympathy for it.

But the social and economic interventions already appear in a different light when ones reads the full articles, not just the bits you quoted. It doesn't look like someone is enriching himself and his cronies, as I already suggested. It remains to be seen what longterm effects his 'antics' will have.

I find the pic of the MoD hilarious, and admire Chavez's bold, clown-like actions. The laughter is, for a change, at the expense of the rich entrepreneurs and property-owners in Venezuela and the almighty Bush-regime in the US.

Bring it on, Chavez!

squig · 18-05-2006, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

i prefer this piece of cut and paste SK, by the enlightened and always enlightening John Pilger.

Quote:

Chávez is, of course, a threat, especially to the United States. Like the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, who based their revolution on the English co-operative moment, and the moderate Allende in Chile, he offers the threat of an alternative way of developing a decent society: in other words, the threat of a good example in a continent where the majority of humanity has long suffered a Washington-designed peonage. In the US media in the 1980s, the "threat" of tiny Nicaragua was seriously debated until it was crushed. Venezuela is clearly being "softened up" for something similar. A US army publication, Doctrine for Asymmetric War against Venezuela, describes Chávez and the Bolivarian revolution as the "largest threat since the Soviet Union and Communism". When I said to Chávez that the US historically had had its way in Latin America, he replied: "Yes, and my assassination would come as no surprise. But the empire is in trouble, and the people of Venezuela will resist an attack. We ask only for the support of all true democrats."

John Pilger has long been criticised for his criticisms of the mainstream media - moreso in his homeland of Australia, where the majority of media is owned by the same man who owns FOX News and other major world media outlets. Is little wonder that his voice is dimmed slightly?

The more I study world media, the more afraid I become for the future of our planet! Economics rules on every page and every news broadcast.

Just read between the lines!

attaboy · 18-05-2006, 08:47 AM

I believe SK was saying Chavez's government is just another dictatorship. Chavez is talking of making changes to the country's constitution so he can stay in power for another 25 years.

Quote:

Chavez said Friday that he said he might seek "indefinite" re-election through a referendum if the opposition boycotts the presidential vote.

"I would call a national referendum to have the people decide if I can continue here indefinitely or if I have to go after six years," he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=1932342

Is he a nazi? I don't know if he believes in racial purity and racial superiority. But I do believe he encourages hatred between indigenous indians, dark skin latinos and light skin latinos. Is he an anti-semite? I don't know. It's possible. Maybe he was referring to powerful people in general. Many people in Latin America inherit their power and wealth so maybe he was alluding to it by speaking of 'decendents'.

Quote:

The speech was given on Christmas Eve, and the key passage reads: "The world has enough for all. But it turned out that some minorities, descendants of those who crucified Christ, descendants of those who threw Bolívar out of here and also crucified him in their own way in Santa Marta, there in Colombia.
"A minority took the world's riches for themselves, a minority appropriated the world's gold, its silver, its minerals, its water, it's fertile land, its oil, took its riches, then concentrated that wealth in the hands of a few: fewer than ten per cent of the population of the world owns more than half the world's wealth."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=BLOGDETAIL&grid=P30&blog=newsdesk& xml=/news/2006/01/23/bleurope23.xml

I disagree that the US media and admin focus so much on him. The Bush admin has pretty much publically ignored him until this recent stunt of offering to sell F-16 fighter jets to Iran. Chavez seeks attention and the more he has been ignored by the US and the more he ruins things in his own country the louder he shouts for attention and the more he seeks diversions away from his domestic problems. The US media give him attention because he knocks Bush, because they want to document his unraveling and they want to be there when he finally goes crazy in public. No one can be sure when it will happen. Las Vegas bookmakers may be able to give odds on this which inturn would provide a general timeframe.

In what light should the food shortages and the resulting suffering he created be seen? He doubled the price to be paid to coffee growers while maintaining the price set for the sale of the roasted coffee. I'd guess the result was coffee roasters didn't buy any raw coffee from the growers and they sat on their existing inventory to see what would happen. The growers in the meantime had to store their beans at their expense without any income from sales. I wonder what percentage of the beans molded while sitting in possesion of the growers? Is this ineptitude, romanticism run amok or intimidation and destruction of his enemies' economic resources? If I give him the benefit of the doubt and say it is the latter should the people suffer during his policy of destroying his enemies' resources? Is Chavez for peaceful co-existence of the classes and races or is he promoting a 'your turn in the barrel' mentality?

edited: I removed a line in the first paragraph.

Milkman · 18-05-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterfly

I think you missed the sarcasm in my post. Very much aware of that. What I was refering to was the constant labelling by the US media or the Chavez ennemies. The labels these days doesn't mean anything and China is a perfect example. The US is more socialist that China these days.

I did believe there was some sarcasm in your post, but in my mental lapse didn't note it.

You have a good point: China is communist and the U.S. is in bed with them economically. Venezuala is not communist but Venezuela is the big, bad, threat.

The question is: does the American public see the contradiction.

stroller · 18-05-2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by attaboy

In what light should the food shortages and the resulting suffering he created be seen? He doubled the price to be paid to coffee growers while maintaining the price set for the sale of the roasted coffee. I'd guess the result was coffee roasters didn't buy any raw coffee from the growers and they sat on their existing inventory to see what would happen. The growers in the meantime had to store their beans at their expense without any income from sales. I wonder what percentage of the beans molded while sitting in possesion of the growers? Is this ineptitude, romanticism run amok or intimidation and destruction of his enemies' economic resources? If I give him the benefit of the doubt and say it is the latter should the people suffer during his policy of destroying his enemies' resources? Is Chavez for peaceful co-existence of the classes and races or is he promoting a 'your turn in the barrel' mentality?

edited: I removed a line in the first paragraph.

What food shortage? The coffee roasters were hording the beans at the risk of them going moldy - hardly a food crisis.

Quote:

Is this ineptitude, romanticism run amok or intimidation and destruction of his enemies' economic resources? If I give him the benefit of the doubt and say it is the latter should the people suffer during his policy of destroying his enemies' resources? Is Chavez for peaceful co-existence of the classes and races or is he promoting a 'your turn in the barrel' mentality?

I can not judge how sensible the measures are, I have little knowledge of the culture and background in Latin America and Venezuela.
His approach is different from the text-book class warfare, and also from European style social-democratic reforms.
"classes" co-existing peacefully? - obviously not one of his aims, he seems determined to stop the exploitative 'free-market' profiteering, that's just the sort of thing which would raise hairs in the US who have controlled and taken advantage for decades in the region.
Chavez: "As Rousseau said, between the poor and the rich, liberty is oppressive, only law can liberate".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,1775763,00.html

Also, may I ask what you know about the regime in Venezuela before Chavez elections? A comparison might put the present situation into perspective.

17-05-2006, 02:02 PM	#21 (permalink)
Storekeeper Because I said so. Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ban Phe Posts: 4,822	One Very Busy Fascist Dictator Our unfriendly fascist fiend in Venezuela has been one very busy boy lately. I’m reminded more and more every day of Benito Mussolini when I look at this cretin and watch his mad takeover of Venezuela. The peasants down there see improvements mainly due to this dictator grabbing property and socializing everything into what will eventually become a communist dictatorship. History has recorded that the Nazis made the trains run on time too while they were grabbing power. Chavez is no different. First he goes to Cuba and stirs up the rabble with a venomous anti-democracy tirade ... Chavez Points To Socialism As The Only Way to Stop Barbarism May 14, 2006 HAVANA (CUBAN NEWS AGENCY-ACN) Socialism is the only way to thwart barbarism and bring the humankind to a turning point in its fateful history, said Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez in London, Sunday, May 14. Chavez spoke during an encounter with British personalities and groups who support the Venezuelan government. The meeting was held in the Camden Center in North London, reported Prensa Latina news agency. “Let’s take on socialism; let’s debate it and build it. I believe that its mistakes were in the economic analysis, there should be social praxis, and 21st century socialism should be based on solid human values,” he stressed. “We are facing the threat of global challenges stemming from the genocidal, immoral, sick, and corrupt elite currently governing the United States, which appear to have no limits,” he added. The Venezuelan president warned about Washington’s threats against Iran and he said that if that aggression materializes, oil prices could reach 100 dollars a barrel. “The outcome of such aggression is unknown, but the Empire is going to find itself inPa worse position than the one they have currently in Iraq, where they do not know what to do with the civil war that has erupted there and can’t find a way out,” he noted. Chavez called US President George W. Bush a murderer, guilty of genocide, who supposedly fights terrorism, while his country is a sanctuary of terrorists. __________________ "England forever; the USA one day longer" To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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17-05-2006, 09:04 PM	#24 (permalink)
Butterfly Suspended Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 11,645	Aren't Chinese communist ? why aren't they a threat ?

17-05-2006, 11:29 PM	#26 (permalink)
Butterfly Suspended Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 11,645	I think you missed the sarcasm in my post. Very much aware of that. What I was refering to was the constant labelling by the US media or the Chavez ennemies. The labels these days doesn't mean anything and China is a perfect example. The US is more socialist that China these days.

18-05-2006, 12:40 AM	#28 (permalink)
Marmite the Dog Too drunk to fuck Last Online: Yesterday 11:03 PM Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Fuckwitistan Posts: 25,721	Hmmm, not very biased sources there... Get one from Autie Beeb and I'll take it seriously.

18-05-2006, 01:03 AM	#29 (permalink)
stroller Kraut Last Online: 01-07-2008 11:03 AM Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: under the headphones Posts: 17,181	Thanks attaboy. Still, your quotes make him look like yet another South-American dictator with a different twist, not comparable to the nazis as suggested. Interesting that the US media and admin focus so much on him, could the reason be because he's an "enemy", unlike the other dictators who have been sponsored and supported by the US? I don't say this to distract from the human rights issues which are raised and documented by reliable sources and he loses a lot of sympathy for it. But the social and economic interventions already appear in a different light when ones reads the full articles, not just the bits you quoted. It doesn't look like someone is enriching himself and his cronies, as I already suggested. It remains to be seen what longterm effects his 'antics' will have. I find the pic of the MoD hilarious, and admire Chavez's bold, clown-like actions. The laughter is, for a change, at the expense of the rich entrepreneurs and property-owners in Venezuela and the almighty Bush-regime in the US. Bring it on, Chavez!

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