The Thailand Forum

The Thailand expat forum for Travel, Lifestyle and Fun.


Advertise here!

Forum Home Donate Arcade Chat Room Gallery Blog Mark Forums Read
Go Back   TeakDoor.com - The Thailand Forum > Banal Banter > Issues
Home Register TD Links FAQ Members List Calendar Weather Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Issues There is much going on in the world and the opportunity to discuss these issues and how they affect your world is always relevant. Your opinion is important and though we might not solve the problems confronting society, we just might open someones eyes. What is your opinion?

America Weather Forecasts  TeakDoor Daily crossword

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 18-08-2008, 11:05 AM   #1 (permalink)
Thailand Forum
 
Whiteshiva's Avatar
 
Last Online: 04-02-2010 10:46 PM
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nontaburi
Posts: 4,630
Whiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand Expat
Asia needs a new rule-of-law debate

The rule of law has been getting talked up in Thailand a lot since the former prime minister’s wife, Pojaman Shinawatra, lost a criminal case before a special bench of the Supreme Court, and her husband skipped both town and bail prior to a hearing against him too.

Amid the many editorials and headlines (Krungthep Turakit above: Thaksin, Pojaman flee), academic Michael Connors suggested that the verdict against Pojaman could bode well for a more robust rule of law. Newspaper columnist Chang Noi was effusive, declaring the verdict “a manifesto on behalf of the law.”

Thaksin even got in on the act himself, describing those pursuing his family through the courts as having “no concern for the legal system … or the universal rule of law” and claiming that he and his family are victims of “continuous injustice.”

While the former policeman’s complaints jar with his track record of getting things done any which way, the cases against him and his family do raise issues about how the rule of law needs to be understood and debated in Asia.

One of the main problems besetting talk about rule of law in the region is that it continues to be dominated by writers and thinkers living elsewhere in the world, where courts, police and administrative offices work more or less as expected.

These persons usually take separated powers, constitutionalism and representative government for granted. Some publish commentaries on high-profile cases that are in fact relevant to the society as a whole, because their law and bureaucracy are relatively coherent and systematic.

Others go into the finer points of whether or not it is possible for judges to consistently and impartially apply law, and whether the rule of law should be governed by morals or procedures.

But little if any of this is relevant to people in most parts of Asia.

Apart from a number of states and territories, across the continent there is a huge gulf between the rule of law rhetoric and reality. In Thailand, the police force is an organized crime gang. In Cambodia, judges are proxies for the ruling political party. In the Philippines, army-backed vigilantes kill with impunity.

That a judge may harbor political prejudice or apply the law unevenly are the smallest worries for an ordinary criminal defendant in Asia. More likely ones are: Will the police fabricate the evidence? Will the prosecutor bother to show up? Will the judge fall asleep? Will I be poisoned in prison? Will my case be completed within a decade?

These are not the sort of questions that scholars in countries leading debate about the rule of law typically ask, nor are they particularly relevant to the cases against the Shinawatra clan. But they are the sort that matter most for the rule of law in Asia.

A new language of the rule of law is needed to make sense of it in terms of Thailand and Indonesia rather than Germany or Canada, to gauge it by what goes in the streets, gambling dens and karaoke bars, rather than what goes for an ousted tycoon premier and his relatives. In short, Asia needs a new rule-of-law debate.

This debate will require asking questions about cases that will reveal many more deeply embedded and uncomfortable truths about the day-to-day workings of state agencies and agents, like, why have the police who allegedly tortured Urai Srineh at the Chonburi police station in 2005, which caused him to die from renal failure, never been properly investigated or prosecuted?

What about the ones who shot dead a suspect on the outskirts of Bangkok during 2005 and then sued a top forensic scientist and justice ministry official for saying that the man could not have committed suicide as they had claimed?

Have the three army officers found responsible in court for the killings of 29 young men at Krue Se in 2004 been prosecuted yet? If not, why not?

Has the death in army custody of Charnchai Promthongchai in Mae Hong Son at the end of 2006 ever resulted in anything being done against the responsible officers?

Why didn’t the detailed repeated complaints of Uthai Boonom and Amporn Kochabang that they were abducted, robbed and set up by Saraburi police in 2002 ever lead to a serious review of their case?

Why won’t the Department of Special Investigation come clean on what it knows about who really stabbed environmentalist monk Phra Supoj Suwajo to death in mid-2005?

And when will the courts challenge the security forces over the legality of the use of blacklists to hunt down people in the south, or the Interior Ministry over its use of them to hunt down alleged drug dealers just about everywhere else?

These are just a few examples of more important, more embedded, more difficult and more dangerous matters confronting Thailand than the cases against Thaksin and family.

This is not to say that the cases against Thaksin are unimportant; on the contrary, they are of national significance, but they are not and cannot be a gauge of the rule of law. Not only are they freighted with too much political weight, too much money and way too much of a sense of history in the making, they are in every respect too far removed from the rule of law that matters.


From: Asia needs a new rule-of-law debate « Rule of Lords
__________________
Any error in tact, fact or spelling is purely due to transmissional errors...
Whiteshiva is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2008, 11:20 AM   #2 (permalink)
Thailand Travel Forum
 
good2bhappy's Avatar
 
Last Online: Today 04:42 PM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Klong Samwa
Posts: 11,470
good2bhappy Thailand Expatgood2bhappy Thailand Expatgood2bhappy Thailand Expatgood2bhappy Thailand Expatgood2bhappy Thailand Expatgood2bhappy Thailand Expatgood2bhappy Thailand Expatgood2bhappy Thailand Expatgood2bhappy Thailand Expatgood2bhappy Thailand Expatgood2bhappy Thailand Expat
Thailand is still semi Feudal. Connections are everything.
Rule of Law?
good2bhappy is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2008, 12:16 PM   #3 (permalink)
Pedantic bastard
 
Last Online: Today 09:55 PM
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,957
nidhogg Thailand Expatnidhogg Thailand Expatnidhogg Thailand Expatnidhogg Thailand Expatnidhogg Thailand Expatnidhogg Thailand Expatnidhogg Thailand Expatnidhogg Thailand Expatnidhogg Thailand Expatnidhogg Thailand Expatnidhogg Thailand Expat
Interesting article, but it managed to miss the link between the taxin cases and the cases it cites. They are all facets of the same issue: Corruption. So long as corruption (of the governemnt, of the police, of the courts) continues to thrive unchecked, the abuses it mentions will continue. Tackle corruption and everything else falls into line.
nidhogg is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2008, 12:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
Days Work Done!
 
Norton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Roiet
Posts: 12,478
Norton Thailand ExpatNorton Thailand ExpatNorton Thailand ExpatNorton Thailand ExpatNorton Thailand ExpatNorton Thailand ExpatNorton Thailand ExpatNorton Thailand ExpatNorton Thailand ExpatNorton Thailand ExpatNorton Thailand Expat
Quote:
Originally Posted by good2bhappy
Connections are everything.
Far too prevalent as it relates to the rule of law. Applies to some western countries as well but not near to the extent it does in Asian countries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nidhogg
Tackle corruption and everything else falls into line.
While not the cure all for Thailand and many other countries, sure would solve a lot of the problems regarding "rule of law". Corruption needs to be tackled from the top down. The country's leader must be incorruptible and punish those who are corrupt without regard to connections. Much to learn from Singapore and it's leadership in this regard.
__________________
There is such a thing as a nation being so right that it does not need to convince others by force that it is right.

Woodrow Wilson
Norton is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2008, 04:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
Thailand Expat
 
robuzo's Avatar
 
Last Online: Today 09:19 PM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Paese dei Balocchi
Posts: 2,248
robuzo Thailand Expatrobuzo Thailand Expatrobuzo Thailand Expatrobuzo Thailand Expatrobuzo Thailand Expatrobuzo Thailand Expatrobuzo Thailand Expatrobuzo Thailand Expatrobuzo Thailand Expatrobuzo Thailand Expatrobuzo Thailand Expat
Quote:
Originally Posted by good2bhappy View Post
Thailand is still semi Feudal. Connections are everything.
Rule of Law?
Connections and patronage. I don't see that changing any time soon. Thaksin fell from grace and lost his patron (or put same in an untenable position), now it just remains to be seen how much he has in terms of other forms of leverage, including embarrassing information about other elites. I suspect there are lots of highly-placed persons here who don't want old Square Face thinking he has nothing to lose.
robuzo is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2008, 10:47 AM   #6 (permalink)
Thailand Forum
 
Whiteshiva's Avatar
 
Last Online: 04-02-2010 10:46 PM
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nontaburi
Posts: 4,630
Whiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand ExpatWhiteshiva Thailand Expat
Quote:
Originally Posted by robuzo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by good2bhappy View Post
Thailand is still semi Feudal. Connections are everything.
Rule of Law?
Connections and patronage. I don't see that changing any time soon.
I dunno - Thailand is in for a heck of a change sometime in the near future (Not able to elaborate, but you all know what I am referring to), and unless the country goes completely over the edge and ends up like Burma, I have hopes that things will change for the better, perhaps after a period of some turmoil. There are plenty of capable and honest people here in Thailand, it is just that with the present patronage system, they rarely raise to a level where they can excel.
Whiteshiva is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Register Forum Home Donate FAQ Members List Calendar

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT +7. The time now is 10:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.12
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2
Copyright ©2005 - 2009 by TeakDoor.com
Page generated in 0.31689 seconds with 19 queries