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attaboy · 21-07-2008, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Quote:

Originally Posted by attaboy

It's tough for individuals caught up in the net but that sort of thing happens everyday everywhere, as I said.

That's an easy thing to say, from the freedom of your keyboard.

Besides which most democratic nations have due process and habeas corpus to ensure that you can't be arbitrarily detained or that, if you are, you have the right to face your accusers and the accusations against you.

Due process is there for a reason and dates all the way back to 1217 and the Magna Carta. Dismissing that so whimsically and easily is not a road that should be travelled.

Which western countries? The UK a person can be held for 28 days without charge. Proposed to become 54 days.

The Italian judge ruled there was enough evidence to keep Amanda Knox, a 20-year-old studying abroad in the central Italian city of Perugia, and the two men behind bars for up to one year without charge as the investigation continues into the Nov. 1 slaying of Meredith Kercher.

Local News | UW student implicates boss | Seattle Times Newspaper

lysander · 21-07-2008, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by attaboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Quote:

Originally Posted by attaboy

It's tough for individuals caught up in the net but that sort of thing happens everyday everywhere, as I said.

That's an easy thing to say, from the freedom of your keyboard.

Besides which most democratic nations have due process and habeas corpus to ensure that you can't be arbitrarily detained or that, if you are, you have the right to face your accusers and the accusations against you.

Due process is there for a reason and dates all the way back to 1217 and the Magna Carta. Dismissing that so whimsically and easily is not a road that should be travelled.

Which western countries? The UK a person can be held for 28 days without charge. Proposed to become 54 days.

It's actually proposed to be 48 days and it won't happen. Our unelected old-fartish House of Lords will make sure of that. Even if 48 days were to become law
it doesn't bear comparison with 6 fookin years in Gitmo.

Panda · 21-07-2008, 07:40 AM

The Gitmo supporters seemed to have missed the point that the detainees are being held on foreign soil by the US government purely so the US government can escape giving these detainees their legal rights under their own US law.
It makes a mockery of the USA claim to be defending freedom and justice.

attaboy · 21-07-2008, 09:14 AM

I haven't missed the point. Wild maniacs flew two planes into the Twin Towers killing 3000 people. We are dealing with a new class of warriors. The president went gung ho on the Taliban for harboring the treacherous and murdering masterminds and their minions. Now that the dust has settled we are sorting things out. The judicial branch of government is determining the degree at which the executive branch can prosecute the war. Our system works. Woe to people caught up in exciting times.

The GITMO people are getting their lawyers and they are going to sue. I hope they are all US lawyers so 40% of any settlements stays in the USA.

I got a question. How much money should should Osama's personal driver and flunky get for being touched by a female interrogator? What would be just and fair?

sabang · 21-07-2008, 09:34 AM

When you add the moral issues, the loss of prestige, the dubious legality, and the obvious hypocricy of all this to the fact that the people detained in Gitmo have been minor pawns, and all too often innocent anyway- Do you really think GITMO has been worth it Atta?

Add to all this the cost of Gitmo, and the ongoing legal bills- wouldn't it have been better just to have used good old fashioned Constitutional due process? What started out as an expedient short cut is turning out quite the opposite.

AntRobertson · 21-07-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by attaboy

Which western countries? The UK a person can be held for 28 days without charge. Proposed to become 54 days.

The Italian judge ruled there was enough evidence to keep Amanda Knox, a 20-year-old studying abroad in the central Italian city of Perugia, and the two men behind bars for up to one year without charge as the investigation continues into the Nov. 1 slaying of Meredith Kercher.

Local News | UW student implicates boss | Seattle Times Newspaper

As lysander's already pointed out, neither instance bares comparison to Gitmo.

Quote:

I haven't missed the point. Wild maniacs flew two planes into the Twin Towers killing 3000 people. We are dealing with a new class of warriors. The president went gung ho on the Taliban for harboring the treacherous and murdering masterminds and their minions. Now that the dust has settled we are sorting things out.

Ok, and how does Iraq and detainees from Iraq fit into that picture?

Quote:

The judicial branch of government is determining the degree at which the executive branch can prosecute the war. Our system works. Woe to people caught up in exciting times.

Again, easy to say the 'system works' when you're not one of the ones that have been caught up in it. What do you think someone held without charge for several years would say to your claim that the 'system works'?

Quote:

I got a question. How much money should should Osama's personal driver and flunky get for being touched by a female interrogator? What would be just and fair?

Doesn't strike me as a very genuine or sincere question.

Panda · 21-07-2008, 10:21 AM

[quote=attaboy;697634]
Our system works. Woe to people caught up in exciting times.
quote]

YOU may find these uncertain times "exciting", but I think you will find that the vast majority of people around the world find it very depressing and sad.

ChiangMai noon · 21-07-2008, 10:22 AM

the system works so well that any evidence gained is totally illegal anyway.

Quote:

The Bush administration has announced its intention to try six alleged al Qaeda members at Guantánamo under the Military Commissions Act. That Act forbids the admission of evidence extracted by torture, although it permits evidence obtained by cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment if it was secured before December 30, 2005. Thus, the administration would be forbidden from relying on evidence obtained by waterboarding, if waterboarding constitutes torture.

That's one reason Attorney General Michael Mukasey refuses to admit waterboarding is torture. The other is that torture is considered a war crime under the U.S. War Crimes Act. Mukasey would be calling Dick Cheney a war criminal if the former admitted waterboarding is torture. Lawrence Wilkerson, Colin Powell's former chief of staff, has said on National Public Radio that the policies that led to the torture and abuse of prisoners emanated from the Vice President's office.

The federal government is working overtime to try and clean up the legal mess made by the use of illegal interrogation methods. In a thinly-veiled attempt to sanitize the Guantánamo trials, the Department of Justice and the Pentagon instituted an extensive program to re-interview the prisoners who have undergone abusive interrogations, this time with "clean teams." For example, if a prisoner implicated one of the defendants during an interrogation using waterboarding, the government will now re-interrogate that prisoner without waterboarding and get the same information. Then they will say the information was secured humanely. This attempt to wipe the slate clean is a farce and a sham.

sabang · 21-07-2008, 10:51 AM

^ Got a linky for that CMN.

Norton · 21-07-2008, 10:52 AM

^^Sure you didn't write this yourself so would like to see a link.

ChiangMai noon · 21-07-2008, 10:58 AM

hang on.....

there you are.

JURIST - Forum: Injustice at Guantanamo: Torture Evidence and the Military Commissions Act

Panda · 21-07-2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

The federal government is working overtime to try and clean up the legal mess made by the use of illegal interrogation methods. In a thinly-veiled attempt to sanitize the Guantánamo trials, the Department of Justice and the Pentagon instituted an extensive program to re-interview the prisoners who have undergone abusive interrogations, this time with "clean teams." For example, if a prisoner implicated one of the defendants during an interrogation using waterboarding, the government will now re-interrogate that prisoner without waterboarding and get the same information. Then they will say the information was secured humanely. This attempt to wipe the slate clean is a farce and a sham.

[/quote]

I wonder if the prisoners know this, or will they just be asked to confirm their previous confessions under the real or imagined threat or more torture?

panama hat · 21-07-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texpat

Being of a certain religion or nationality isn't a problem.
Being a para military on a battlefield, tossing hand grenades is.
Well, that's not really a problem either unless you get caught.
Then, you're screwed.

If I was in Afghanistan a few months after 9-11, near an Al Queda camp, hanging out with a bunch of heavily armed guys trying to kill westerners -- well, it's a gamble isn't it?

Your day at the zoo sounds very nice PH.

It was, thanks, Texpat . . . a nice Sunday.

Well, to provide a tiny bit of levity in this discussion, I'll share a my day at the zoo with all and sundry.

In most of Asia zoos are a bit depressing as there doesn't seem to be the
same feeling towards animals and zoos are still mainly for gawking, instead of also providing breeding and research facilities.

Living in Singapore for so many years spoiled us in that regard - easily the best zoo we've been to, followed closely by Taronga in Sydney and the Berlin zoo. (some good ones in North America as well)

KL zoo is underfunded and suffers from the usual tropic weather - it looks a bit old and drab . . .

But - - it is actually quite nice, and small enough to walk around in a few hours - just right for toddlers who need some food and a nap just after noon.

Quite a nice selection of animals, pretty much standard range . . . and entry is RM15 per adult . . . irrespective of whether you are Malaysian or a foreigner!

The staff is nice and it has a good feeling to it. Beware those of you who have a problem with Mussies, though - there's lots of them . . . some even wear the female outfit!!!!

All in all, a nice few hours in the warmth . . . and smells

Oh, went to Baskin Robbins afterwards for Mrs Hat for a Very Berry and New Zealand Natural Ice cream for a durian soft blend for me and strawberry the girls . . .

Ok, battle may continue:

Can we agree on the simple premise that a trial to convict or release would suit everyone?

Panda · 21-07-2008, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panama hat

Can we agree on the simple premise that a trial to convict or release would suit everyone?

Afraid not there Panama hat.
A major travesty of justice has been committed by illegally abducting, imprisoning and torturing "suspected" terrorists. This dreadful and shameful wrong wont be made right by a show trial orchestrated by the captors and outside the terms of the justice system in any civilized country (including USA.)

Texpat · 21-07-2008, 02:47 PM

The EU incarcerates illegal immigrants for eight years.

Not much whining about that.

Gitmo has only been open for six.

AntRobertson · 21-07-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texpat

The EU incarcerates illegal immigrants for eight years.

Eh? When and where has this occured?

Texpat · 21-07-2008, 02:49 PM

I believe the thread started when you were out on your Stroller.

Since I'm such a nice guy and a good sport, I've fetched it for you. See, who says it's all blood and brimstone in issues?

By Caroline Brothrs
International Heradl Tribune
June 18, 2008

STRASBOURG -- European Union lawmakers voted Wednesday to allow countries in the bloc to hold undocumented migrants in detention centers for up to 18 months and ban them from EU territory for five years.

Approved in this medieval French border city, which is home to a significant population of North Africans and Turks, the legislation establishes common rules for expelling foreigners who are detained on EU territory without permission to be there.

Described by critics like Amnesty International as "severely flawed" and an erosion of human rights standards, but by supporters as a balanced approach, the so-called return directive passed in the European Parliament by a vote of 369 to 197, with 106 deputies abstaining.

"The member states must decide whether they need them - if so, then please legalize them," Manfred Weber, the German center-right legislator from Bavaria who shepherded the measures through the European Parliament, said of undocumented migrants in Europe. "If you don't need them for your labor markets, then send them home."

Europe, which has freedom of movement within its 25 Schengen states but no overarching policy on immigration, sees the law as a means to unify a patchwork of systems governing treatment of migrants who overstay their visas or who, in far lesser numbers, slip clandestinely across its borders.

EU countries currently deal with these migrants by placing them in 224 detention centers, with capacity for 30,871 people, across the bloc. The length of their confinement varies from 32 days in France to 18 months in Germany. In eight EU countries there is no upper limit on detention. European legislators visiting Denmark in April said they were concerned about some detainees who had been held for eight years. (oh goodness!)

Weber said the decision Wednesday provided a limit on detention in those eight countries - though two of them, Denmark and Britain, have opt-outs from the legislation.

But opponents of the law, like Cimade, the only French nongovernmental organization authorized to work in the 23 detention centers in France, fear that it will encourage countries with shorter detention lengths to extend them.

Cimade released a statement Wednesday saying that it deplored the passage of what civil liberties groups have called "the directive of shame," and said it was studying the possibility of contesting it before the European Court of Justice or the European Court of Human Rights.

Ten amendments proposed by European Socialists were rejected Wednesday.

They included the necessity for a judge's approval for detention within 72 hours of an arrest, the obligation to provide detainees with legal counsel and the possibility of making the five-year re-entry ban optional. Other amendments would have reduced the maximum detention period to six months rather than 18 and insisted on greater assurances for the protection of unaccompanied children.

Weber denied that the European Parliament had caved in to the council made up of EU interior ministers during three-way negotiations between the Parliament, the council and the EU's executive branch, the European Commission.

Dragutin Mate, the interior minister of Slovenia who is the council's president, warned lawmakers Tuesday that the failure to approve the directive meant there would be no EU agreement on immigration for at least three years, which would jeopardize pending legislation on workers' rights.

The vote came a day after António Guterres, the United Nations high commissioner for refugees, said that the world was dealing with "a complex mix of global challenges" that could threaten even more forced displacements than the 37.4 million people last year.

The UN refugee agency is concerned about those fleeing conflict or persecution who have the right under international law to seek asylum in safe countries but opt for undocumented entry to Europe because of a lack of legal channels.

It says that large numbers of people will be subject to the directive's five-year re-entry ban, which does not take account of changes in their home countries that could force them to leave again.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/18/europe/migrant.php

Poor, oppressed folks just looking for a scrap of schnitzel or a bite of baguette. Banged up for eight years. Shameful.

Makes Guantanamo look like a walk in the park -- with better weather.

21-07-2008, 09:34 AM	#345 (permalink)
sabang Watching the Wheels Last Online: Today 05:33 PM Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: east of Pattaya Posts: 8,301	When you add the moral issues, the loss of prestige, the dubious legality, and the obvious hypocricy of all this to the fact that the people detained in Gitmo have been minor pawns, and all too often innocent anyway- Do you really think GITMO has been worth it Atta? Add to all this the cost of Gitmo, and the ongoing legal bills- wouldn't it have been better just to have used good old fashioned Constitutional due process? What started out as an expedient short cut is turning out quite the opposite. __________________ To err is human. To blame someone else is politics.

21-07-2008, 07:40 AM	#343 (permalink)
Panda Elite Member Last Online: Today 05:35 PM Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,849	The Gitmo supporters seemed to have missed the point that the detainees are being held on foreign soil by the US government purely so the US government can escape giving these detainees their legal rights under their own US law. It makes a mockery of the USA claim to be defending freedom and justice.

21-07-2008, 09:14 AM	#344 (permalink)
attaboy Elite Member Last Online: Today 06:40 AM Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,411	I haven't missed the point. Wild maniacs flew two planes into the Twin Towers killing 3000 people. We are dealing with a new class of warriors. The president went gung ho on the Taliban for harboring the treacherous and murdering masterminds and their minions. Now that the dust has settled we are sorting things out. The judicial branch of government is determining the degree at which the executive branch can prosecute the war. Our system works. Woe to people caught up in exciting times. The GITMO people are getting their lawyers and they are going to sue. I hope they are all US lawyers so 40% of any settlements stays in the USA. I got a question. How much money should should Osama's personal driver and flunky get for being touched by a female interrogator? What would be just and fair?

21-07-2008, 10:21 AM	#347 (permalink)
Panda Elite Member Last Online: Today 05:35 PM Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,849	[quote=attaboy;697634] Our system works. Woe to people caught up in exciting times. quote] YOU may find these uncertain times "exciting", but I think you will find that the vast majority of people around the world find it very depressing and sad.

21-07-2008, 10:51 AM	#349 (permalink)
sabang Watching the Wheels Last Online: Today 05:33 PM Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: east of Pattaya Posts: 8,301	^ Got a linky for that CMN.

21-07-2008, 10:52 AM	#350 (permalink)
Norton Born Again Pagan Last Online: Today 04:33 PM Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Roiet Posts: 7,039	^^Sure you didn't write this yourself so would like to see a link.

21-07-2008, 10:58 AM	#351 (permalink)
ChiangMai noon ysbryd y nos Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: o dan y bryn Posts: 25,162	hang on..... there you are. JURIST - Forum: Injustice at Guantanamo: Torture Evidence and the Military Commissions Act

21-07-2008, 02:47 PM	#355 (permalink)
Texpat ฝรั่งพูดมาก Last Online: Today 01:10 PM Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nong Khai Posts: 9,480	The EU incarcerates illegal immigrants for eight years. Not much whining about that. Gitmo has only been open for six.

21-07-2008, 02:49 PM	#357 (permalink)
Texpat ฝรั่งพูดมาก Last Online: Today 01:10 PM Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nong Khai Posts: 9,480	I believe the thread started when you were out on your Stroller. Since I'm such a nice guy and a good sport, I've fetched it for you. See, who says it's all blood and brimstone in issues? By Caroline Brothrs International Heradl Tribune June 18, 2008 STRASBOURG -- European Union lawmakers voted Wednesday to allow countries in the bloc to hold undocumented migrants in detention centers for up to 18 months and ban them from EU territory for five years. Approved in this medieval French border city, which is home to a significant population of North Africans and Turks, the legislation establishes common rules for expelling foreigners who are detained on EU territory without permission to be there. Described by critics like Amnesty International as "severely flawed" and an erosion of human rights standards, but by supporters as a balanced approach, the so-called return directive passed in the European Parliament by a vote of 369 to 197, with 106 deputies abstaining. "The member states must decide whether they need them - if so, then please legalize them," Manfred Weber, the German center-right legislator from Bavaria who shepherded the measures through the European Parliament, said of undocumented migrants in Europe. "If you don't need them for your labor markets, then send them home." Europe, which has freedom of movement within its 25 Schengen states but no overarching policy on immigration, sees the law as a means to unify a patchwork of systems governing treatment of migrants who overstay their visas or who, in far lesser numbers, slip clandestinely across its borders. EU countries currently deal with these migrants by placing them in 224 detention centers, with capacity for 30,871 people, across the bloc. The length of their confinement varies from 32 days in France to 18 months in Germany. In eight EU countries there is no upper limit on detention. European legislators visiting Denmark in April said they were concerned about some detainees who had been held for *eight years.* (oh goodness!) Weber said the decision Wednesday provided a limit on detention in those eight countries - though two of them, Denmark and Britain, have opt-outs from the legislation. But opponents of the law, like Cimade, the only French nongovernmental organization authorized to work in the 23 detention centers in France, fear that it will encourage countries with shorter detention lengths to extend them. Cimade released a statement Wednesday saying that it deplored the passage of what civil liberties groups have called "the directive of shame," and said it was studying the possibility of contesting it before the European Court of Justice or the European Court of Human Rights. Ten amendments proposed by European Socialists were rejected Wednesday. They included the necessity for a judge's approval for detention within 72 hours of an arrest, the obligation to provide detainees with legal counsel and the possibility of making the five-year re-entry ban optional. Other amendments would have reduced the maximum detention period to six months rather than 18 and insisted on greater assurances for the protection of unaccompanied children. Weber denied that the European Parliament had caved in to the council made up of EU interior ministers during three-way negotiations between the Parliament, the council and the EU's executive branch, the European Commission. Dragutin Mate, the interior minister of Slovenia who is the council's president, warned lawmakers Tuesday that the failure to approve the directive meant there would be no EU agreement on immigration for at least three years, which would jeopardize pending legislation on workers' rights. The vote came a day after António Guterres, the United Nations high commissioner for refugees, said that the world was dealing with "a complex mix of global challenges" that could threaten even more forced displacements than the 37.4 million people last year. The UN refugee agency is concerned about those fleeing conflict or persecution who have the right under international law to seek asylum in safe countries but opt for undocumented entry to Europe because of a lack of legal channels. It says that large numbers of people will be subject to the directive's five-year re-entry ban, which does not take account of changes in their home countries that could force them to leave again. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/18/europe/migrant.php Poor, oppressed folks just looking for a scrap of schnitzel or a bite of baguette. Banged up for eight years. Shameful. Makes Guantanamo look like a walk in the park -- with better weather.

21-07-2008, 02:52 PM	#358 (permalink)
AntRobertson Ich Bin Ein Auslander Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,312