Thread: Question: Who exports the most death?

Which country exports the most weapons? Take a guess.

Russian federation?

Times have changed gentlemen.

In terms of the big Defence industry manufacturers, the only major that is not American is British Aerospace. The others are Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon. Then you get to the second tier Arms manufacturers.

So how could it be anyone else than the USA? Unless it is some ridiculous statistic, like the worlds largest exporter of rifles or something.

USA EU And Russia were 1,2,3 in 2007
But if you add up all Russia's "satelites"!

Sweden ?

So how could it be anyone else than the USA? Unless it is some ridiculous statistic, like the worlds largest exporter of rifles or something.

Rifles kill more people than F-16s.

My apologies, my connection keeps dropping. I don't see Israel listed in your link, Ivor.

Here's an article I came across.


UK becomes biggest weapons exporter
By Stephen Fidler, Defence and Security Editor

Published: June 17 2008 23:09 | Last updated: June 17 2008 23:09

Britain became the world’s largest arms exporter last year, according to government figures released on Tuesday, overtaking the US, which normally occupies the top slot.

The UK won £10bn of new defence orders in 2007 from overseas, giving it a 33 per cent share of the world export market, according to figures released on Tuesday by the Defence and Security Organisation, set up to promote Britain’s defence exports. Export orders totalled £5.5bn in 2006.

2007 figures were helped by a large order from Saudi Arabia for Typhoon aircraft, valued initially at £4.3bn. They were further aided by orders from Oman and Trinidad and Tobago for offshore patrol vessels. Orders from North America were also significant – the US imported more weapons from the UK than from any other country, the DSO said.

UK Trade and Investment, the department of which the DSO is a part, could not immediately supply data for other countries in 2007 or detailed year-on-year comparisons. However, the figures reflect arms orders – which can cluster in particular years and may or may not be completed – rather than arms deliveries, a more precise measure of exports.

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, which collates data on arms deliveries, the UK was the sixth largest supplier of defence equipment in 2007 – after the US, Russia, Germany, France and the Netherlands. Over a five-year period it was the fifth largest.

But according to the DSO figures, last year’s orders mean the UK has been the second largest exporter of arms over the previous five years, after the US. Cumulative exports from the US were $63bn (£32bn), the UK $53bn, Russia $33bn, France $17bn, and Germany and Israel with $9bn each.

Saudi Arabia was the largest importer over the period – $31bn, followed by India with $18bn and the US $17bn. Three countries – Australia ($11bn), Canada ($10bn) and Pakistan ($6bn) – moved up the import rankings, it said.

Lord Jones, trade and investment minister, said: “As demonstrated by this outstanding export performance, the UK has a first class defence industry with some of the world’s most technologically sophisticated companies.”

Ian Godden, chief executive of the Society of British Aerospace Companies, said: “We are proud that the UK defence industry remains a world leader. This success is built on investment made in the 1990s and, if we are to continue to reap these economic benefits in the future, this investment will need to be maintained.”

The DSO is the successor to the Defence Export Services Organisation, which was moved by the government out of the Ministry of Defence last year following alleged arms export scandals. Its new head, Richard Paniguian, is a former senior BP executive who had been involved in developing a code of conduct for extractive industries.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 20

putting the "great" back in Britian. well done New Labour?

Is this is going to be one of those "Lies, damned Lies, and Statistics" threads.
Deaths by gunshot include suicide, accidental and crime- nothing to do with War.

Will the unspoken assumption be to therfore pontificate that it is acceptable to export cluster bombs and land mines, because more people are killed by gunshot wounds? I wonder.

From the article:

UK Trade and Investment, the department of which the DSO is a part, could not immediately supply data for other countries in 2007 or detailed year-on-year comparisons. However, the figures reflect arms orders – which can cluster in particular years and may or may not be completed – rather than arms deliveries, a more precise measure of exports.

They may be jumping the gun a bit. Err... make that popping the corks

It appears as though a large order by the Saudis pulled the UK ahead. Roll teh UK sales into EU sales and the USA is an also ran.

Originally Posted by attaboy

Question: Who exports the most death?

Originally Posted by attaboy

Which country exports the most weapons?

The correlation between these two questions is almost impossible to resolve.

Further when $ comparisons are done it doesn't take into account the relative cost of each weapon. A fighter plane purchased from the US or EU can be 4 to 5 times the cost of one purchased elsewhere.

^^ The US an Arms 'also ran'- No way! The statistics for Arms export are deliberately obfuscated- Israel being the obvious example. Thus Us will, say, place a large order with Boeing, that is sent to israel under the Foreign aid budget. This appears as a domestic order for Boeing, although it is really an Export. The UK, France etc are just as guilty of this also, if to a smaller extent.

Arms sales are also an instrument of foreign policy.

The biggest killer surely is poor nutrition, lack of sanitary conditions and clean drinking water?

Just because a country exports the most military hardware, doesn't mean they export the most death.
It's who does the importing that is more important.

Where are Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia and Burma getting their equipment? Probably from China.

Okay, okay, the USA places or shows.

The title of the topic was an attention getter. I realize export of weapons =/= export of death. If you want to get technical how exactly does one export death? by eating cuttlefish salad and breathing on a hapless sole?

Originally Posted by sabang

Thus Us will, say, place a large order with Boeing, that is sent to israel under the Foreign aid budget. This appears as a domestic order for Boeing, although it is really an Export.

You are talking about government to government sales known as Foreign Military Sales (FMS) in the US. FMS sales are subject to the same export criteria and reporting criteria as those related to direct commercial sales (company direct to country). Both are included in US government figures on arms sales.

In the case of Israel, the US allocates $3B per year in "military aid" FMS. Israel can spend one quarter of the money to purchase Israeli industry products, the rest must be spent to purchase US weapons systems.

An additional low interest financing package is available for use by Israel known as Foreign Military Financing (FMF). The amount is adjusted annually but averages around $2B per year. As with FMS the money must be used to purchase US weapons.

FMS and FMF are programs are given to other countries as well. Iraq and Egypt are next after Israel in size.

All in all a very cozy relationship between the US and the governments where these programs are in place. As you point out, there are foriegn policy benefits and of course financial benefits to the companies that supply the arms. The UK has similar relationships and is particularly active in Saudi Arabia.

^ I dunno the complex mechanisms involved, but quite a few arms exports to friendly regimes are hidden, or at least obfuscated. How, I wonder. Foreign aid budgets? Lease agreements? Training? (thats one I know has been used by the Brits- many Hawk fighters were sold to African nations as training planes, and somehow avoided the arms sales figures). Pro rata 'gifts', in exchange for infrastructural contracts? Dodgy bookkeeping? 'Black Budgets'?

Limited only by imagination, Political will and crookedness I reckon. Wouldn't actually surprise me if the US is less miscreant than most in this regard, given it's general preference for transparency, but I'd bet a pound to a penny that they do it too.

Incidentally, it is well known that US aid to Israel is well understated in the official figures. Loan guarantees (in which the US is often the loaner as well) alone dwarf the official aid figures.