Thread: Chavez moves on

Many people will say they make their own luck along with the luck that comes along. A person can anticipate and position themselves to have a better chance or to take advantage.

^
Yes, 'luck' as in being prepared when the opportunity arises.

Still, no direct relation to wealth and income, just as hard work isn't related to income, either.
These are contributing factors.

Originally Posted by surasak

Not everyone has the same opportunity for and equal and fair education, however. The kid who graduates from the high school near me stands a better chance in life than the kid who graduates from the high school in the poor section of downtown Portland.

Wealthier districts = better teachers, more choice of classes and sports, and, subsequently can lead to better opportunities for college.

So that should be an incentive for these downtown kids to work hard, save their money and move closer to where you live - for the sake of their kids, if not for themselves. It may take more than one generation to achieve it though, but it's still worth the effort.

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

So yes. Survival of the fittest. It's the basic law of life on Earth.

...Chavez is a catalyst, a man of the hour, far from perfect, but this is what it's at.

Yes, and in a few years, maybe decades, we'll find out what a total mess he made of their economy, how he wasted the oil revenue and stashed billions abroad for his retirement.

Please log in again in, say, 10 years to see if I'm right or wrong!

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

If someone spends most of their working life cleaning toilets, then that's most likely because that's all their good for within their society. Likewise, if someone is successful, then fair play to them.

I remember when I was 20 and used to think that way. I was naive and all that and believed in that kind of crap. If you are very inexperienced or didn't learn anything from the business world, I can understand how your statement above make sense. Try working for a few years in real companies, big ones, and you will soon find out the reality of things. If it was that simple, we would all follow those principles. But it's not.

Funny, I used to think everyone was equal when I was 20, but I found out over time that there are people who will always be toilet cleaners and others who will always see opportunities and use their skills and brains to get on in life.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

The more capable can fail because the system don't let them a chance.

The "system"??? What are you talking about? Sounds like you f*cked up somewhere and bear a grudge.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Likewise, success stories often happens out of luck. Now tell me how has this anything to do with one abilities and capacities within society ? none.

If opportunities come along you have to see them and take them. The "toilet cleaners" never seem to see them.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

So yes. Survival of the fittest. It's the basic law of life on Earth.

This is the silliest and the most naive statement of all. I think you are trolling. Nobody short of a Nazi apologist can believe in that crap. Actually use that sentence and switch fittest with lucky and then it makes sense. How many leeches and weak were able to survive and make it big in this society. Too many to list. Hardly survival of the fittest.

Getting on in life and making money has a little to do with luck, and a lot to do with hard work. If you think it all luck, you might as well spend 24x7 in a bar drinking yourself to death, because there's no need to worry - something "lucky" will happen and save you. Or it won't and you'll die. You have absolutely no control over your future, do you?

OR, you could work hard every day and see what opportunities arise.

Originally Posted by attaboy

Many people will say they make their own luck along with the luck that comes along. A person can anticipate and position themselves to have a better chance or to take advantage.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by stroller

... just as hard work isn't related to income, either.
These are contributing factors.

Very, very large contributing factors.

Originally Posted by RDN

...how he wasted the oil revenue and stashed billions abroad for his retirement.

Couldn't be much worse than Exxon or the other oil companies' directors, I don't think?

Originally Posted by RDN

Getting on in life and making money has a little to do with luck, and a lot to do with hard work.
...
Very, very large contributing factors.

Yes, and as you said:

Originally Posted by RDN

It may take more than one generation to achieve it though, but it's still worth the effort.

I'm so glad you agree.

Define hard work.

Back to the nationalisation issue:

Over the past few days, major newspapers in the United States, such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times and The Wall Street Journal, have published editorials aggressively and harshly criticizing recent declarations and decisions made by re-elected President Hugo Chávez and his cabinet.
...
The New York Times editorial, also published on January 10, attacks a recent statement made by President Chávez regarding the nationalization of one telephone company, CANTV, and an electric company. However the Times doesn’t explain that the CANTV is the only non-cellular telephone company in the country, giving it a complete monopoly on national land-line telecommunications and control over a majority of Internet service as well. Furthermore, the CANTV was privatized only in 1991, during the second non-consecutive term of Carlos Andrés Pérez a president later impeached for corruption who implemented a series of privatization measures, despite having run for office on a non-privatization platform just three years before.
In fact, as soon as Carlos Andrés Pérez won office in 1988 after convincing the Venezuelan people he would not permit “neo-liberalism” on Venezuelan shores, he immediately began to announce the privatization of several national industries, including telecommunications, education and the medical and petroleum sectors. This deception led to massive anti-privatization protests during February 1989...

Confused About Venezuela?

So really, it looks like some of the nationalising is merely a reversal of the privatisation previously done by deceiving, corrupted admins, and supported by a broad base of the population.

Originally Posted by stroller

Confused About Venezuela?

So really, it looks like some of the nationalising is merely a reversal of the privatisation previously done by deceiving, corrupted admins, and supported by a broad base of the population.

You neglected to mention that the link also:

- appauds Chavez closing an independent television station

- justifies his coercive consolidation of political parties

- nowhere mentions his intention to change the constitution so that he can rule unchallenged until 2021

Yes, let us applaud the birth of a new dictatorship and leave out all the unpleasant details.

One example of nationalization that took place post 9-11 was the folding of U.S. airport security under the DHS. If it makes strategic sense then it should be done. If foreign companies don't own the oil then Venezuela doesn't have to worry about foreign armies coming to invade to protect those rights. Given the imperialist actions of the U.S. over the past decades (especially in 2003) one can't blame Chavez for kicking out the gwai loh who want to own Venezuela's oil.

Oh, and, RDN: if it were so easy to simply 'work hard and move to a better district' everyone would turn out the same. But due to prejudice, discrimination, etc. it doesn't work that way. There is no magic pill to eliminate poverty; the last thing the poor need is the government and society (especially those with money) using their wealth to keep them poor (through manipulation of spending of tax dollars to benefit only the rich schools, roads, infrastructure, etc). Some of the hardest working people I know will always be in the bottom percentages of wealth; there's far more luck involved in 'moving up' than simply working to death.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by RDN

Very, very large contributing factors.

It's a contributing factor, but NOT the contributing factor. Many people succeeded and made a lot of money, but never did shit in their life. I know a few dotcom millionaires that went that way.

I know a very rich kiwi who goes by the motto "hard work never killed anybody,long hours do" He's at work by 7.00AM and on the Golf Course by 4PM.Has had about 6 weeks holiday a year.He's done that most of his working life.

Originally Posted by Hootad Binky

You neglected to mention that the link also:...

That wasn't negligence, I quoted from the article in order to make a point about some of the nationalisation projects.

I provided the link so you could read the whole thing in context and more.

Originally Posted by surasak

...Oh, and, RDN: if it were so easy to simply 'work hard and move to a better district' everyone would turn out the same.

No they wouldn't - there will always be the uneducatable people who will turn out to be toilet cleaners. But the ones with brains should use them.

Originally Posted by surasak

But due to prejudice, discrimination, etc. it doesn't work that way. There is no magic pill to eliminate poverty;

Correct - but the main thing is that everyone should get the same opportunity. WHEN that happens, people shouldn't complain. IF it happens is another matter.

Originally Posted by surasak

the last thing the poor need is the government and society (especially those with money) using their wealth to keep them poor (through manipulation of spending of tax dollars to benefit only the rich schools, roads, infrastructure, etc).

Sounds like a US problem to me.

Originally Posted by surasak

Some of the hardest working people I know will always be in the bottom percentages of wealth; there's far more luck involved in 'moving up' than simply working to death.

Sounds like they're in the wrong job. There's not MORE luck involved. You might as well tell everyone to go home and play the lottery.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by RDN

The "system"??? What are you talking about? Sounds like you f*cked up somewhere and bear a grudge.

whaoo !!! where did this come from ? reading too much between the lines ? or you forgot to stop drinking tonite ? Hint: the system is not perfect and will create situations where the strongs will sink and the weaks will sink even more. Who doesn't have a grudge against the system ? Contemplating the world from Thailand on a bar stool is not going to help one understand the system unfairness.

I think a lot of people reading your post about the "System" would come to the same conclusion as me. Does this "System" have a name?

PS. I haven't sat on a bar stool for over a year.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by RDN

If opportunities come along you have to see them and take them. The "toilet cleaners" never seem to see them.

Oh yeah, the toilet cleaners will surely never see them, how could they ? Ben Afleck is going to show up one day and save the day ? dude, opportunities showing up is exactly what we are talking about, that is luck. If you don't have some resources like money or contacts to take those opportunities, then even your hard work is not going to help you.

Ben who?

The only resource you need is your brain.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by RDN

Getting on in life and making money has a little to do with luck, and a lot to do with hard work.

Luck play a major role but yeah, nobody is denying that hard work with luck should be the way to go if you can take up those opportunities.

Not a "major" role, but opportunites may come once or twice in a life time and you have to ready for them.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by RDN

OR, you could work hard every day and see what opportunities arise.

or you coud work everyday and never see opportunities arise.

Yes, you could be unlucky.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by RDN

Very, very large contributing factors.

It's a contributing factor, but NOT the contributing factor. Many people succeeded and made a lot of money, but never did shit in their life,

There will always be the "inherited rich". Lucky bastards but good luck to them.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

GW Bush our American hero is a perfect example. I also know a few dotcom millionaires that went that way.

Yes, Bush senior taught his kid well.

Not sure what you mean about the dotcoms - they certainly saw an opportunity and took it.

Originally Posted by Little Chuchok

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by RDN

Very, very large contributing factors.

It's a contributing factor, but NOT the contributing factor. Many people succeeded and made a lot of money, but never did shit in their life. I know a few dotcom millionaires that went that way.

I know a very rich kiwi who goes by the motto "hard work never killed anybody,long hours do" He's at work by 7.00AM and on the Golf Course by 4PM.Has had about 6 weeks holiday a year.He's done that most of his working life.

Lucky bloke! I, OTOH, used to get in at about 10 - 10:30am and work through to 9 or 10 at night. Some times I actually worked thought the night and when people started arriving in the morning, I'd sneak out and go home for a shower and food and come back again.

Oh, and I took about 4 or 5 days holiday a year instead of 4 or 5 weeks. Yes I loved my job.

Originally Posted by RDN

Sounds like they're in the wrong job. There's not MORE luck involved. You might as well tell everyone to go home and play the lottery.

You discount the variable of luck too much. We're not talking about guessing numbers. It's a function of networkability....such as having a friend who knows of a job opening, having friends that have capital willing to loan it to you to start a business, having good credit instead of having an ex-wife who screwed your credit for 10 years, etc. Many of the best opportunities people encounter are the result of who they happen to know in life.

Originally Posted by RDN

Originally Posted by Little Chuchok

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by RDN

Very, very large contributing factors.

It's a contributing factor, but NOT the contributing factor. Many people succeeded and made a lot of money, but never did shit in their life. I know a few dotcom millionaires that went that way.

I know a very rich kiwi who goes by the motto "hard work never killed anybody,long hours do" He's at work by 7.00AM and on the Golf Course by 4PM.Has had about 6 weeks holiday a year.He's done that most of his working life.

Lucky bloke! I, OTOH, used to get in at about 10 - 10:30am and work through to 9 or 10 at night. Some times I actually worked thought the night and when people started arriving in the morning, I'd sneak out and go home for a shower and food and come back again.

Oh, and I took about 4 or 5 days holiday a year instead of 4 or 5 weeks. Yes I loved my job.

Very early on in his business life he caught a lucky break.He landed a large contract that enabled him to employ some really good staff.He paid them a good 15-20% more than market rates.This is how he could afford to take the time off etc.This year he will be taking 3 months off.He's got the Rugby World Cup and his new yacht is moored in Valencia so he will be able to watch the Americas Cup.....

^ hard work, I say

Originally Posted by RDN

I think a lot of people reading your post about the "System" would come to the same conclusion as me. Does this "System" have a name?

I have yet to meet anyone who haven't had a grudge with the "system". Who hasn't been fucked by it ? those who claim they never been fucked are either lying or in denial, or they are just living in an Ivory tower.

Originally Posted by RDN

The only resource you need is your brain.

Wrong. That alone is not enough, unfortunately. I wish you were right on that one. How many smart kids can't make it because of social and family issues.

Originally Posted by RDN

There will always be the "inherited rich". Lucky bastards but good luck to them.

Which proves my point that success is not linked to hard work. They are more successful people from inheritance than you would think. Actually the top 1% that own 80% of the wealth are mostly inherited rich by 90%. Not hard work.

Originally Posted by RDN

Not sure what you mean about the dotcoms - they certainly saw an opportunity and took it.

And that opportunity didn't involved any hard work and still they were successful. There is absolutely no positive link between "brain power" or intelligence, hardwork, and success.

- A dumb guy can make it big out of luck (too many examples)
- A genius being out of work for lack of opportunities or for being too smart (scaring off employers)
- A toilet cleaner working hard all her life for only a few hundreds every week
- A lazy trust fund bitch making more money than she needs (no name required)

Feel free to add your own...

Originally Posted by surasak

... having good credit instead of having an ex-wife who screwed your credit for 10 years, etc. Many of the best opportunities people encounter are the result of who they happen to know in life.

But now you have something to look forward to! You're going to leave that scheming biatch behind and come to Thailand - that's a great opportunity that you have grasped!

Originally Posted by Little Chuchok

Very early on in his business life he caught a lucky break.He landed a large contract that enabled him to employ some really good staff.He paid them a good 15-20% more than market rates.This is how he could afford to take the time off etc.This year he will be taking 3 months off.He's got the Rugby World Cup and his new yacht is moored in Valencia so he will be able to watch the Americas Cup.....

I had just two "lucky" breaks - being asked to learn about a strange new chip called a "microprocessor", and then being made redundant and joining a company who sent me to the US to learn about a new telecomms system.

And all this after dropping out of college.

But those bits of "luck" were about 10 years apart and with lots of hard work in between.

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by Hootad Binky

Simple questions, mate: try answering them for once.

You make it sound as if I usually don't answer questions.

Originally Posted by Hootad Binky

(sigh) Let me ask you directly then, what do you think about Chavez:

- closing independent media outlets?
- coercing political parties into joining his own?
- changing the constitution so that he can rule unchallenged until 2021?

I'll comment on this when you provide some info/link so I can read up on the details, or you'll have to wait for me to find more background info.

(sigh) Already posted a link on this thread (sigh)