Thread: Methadone - the crapiest way to treat heroin addicts IMO.

A little Orwellian.

We can then get all the smokers and force them to quit.

All the fatties and withhold food.

Edit; for FT.

Pardon my momentary off-topic relapse ...

It's all a conspiracy ... if we legalized drugs then Bush would be making mo' money ... mo' money ... the world is going to hell in a hand basket.

Thanks ... that's out of my system.

So should they be treated or provided with substitute (so called harm reduction)?

some folks say, 'a drug is a drug'. the implication of this is that alcohol is a drug and, at least for some is dangerous and can result in relapse on other drugs. in the experience of some, being clean requires one be sober also.

Originally Posted by Lily

A little Orwellian.

We can then get all the smokers and force them to quit.

All the fatties and withhold food.

Edit; for FT.

We could yes. But that's not the issue.

Smokers and fatties don't turn to crime, we don't normally have to feed their addiction (not counting Social Benefits).

Also, smokers and fatties aren't breaking the law by smoking tobacco and eating food.

The two therefore are not comparable.

Good post FF. I dont think any of us are espousing the use of methadone as a final solution, it just seems that nothing works though.

methadone is a weak bridge. while it may enable some it has helped others. methadone users are, for example, better able to parent thus keeping more kids out of foster care. it is no panacea. but it has worked for some.

I'm outa my mind ... I just gave out at least my 3rd greenie repo today to FF for that flat outstanding post. Shit hot dude

Originally Posted by obsidian

while it may enable some it has helped others. methadone users are, for example, better able to parent thus keeping more kids out of foster care. it is no panacea. but it has worked for some.

A good point.
These were the kind of people I worked with.

It did keep some of them on track and at least gave the kids a much better life.

Frankie you hit the focking nail on the head with that post.

Even though I keep getting FF and SK mixed up.

Originally Posted by Macha

it just seems that nothing works though.

Not really LILY. There're ways but resources are needed. If our governments don't take interest in such issues then we can't help. If we want to reduce social crimes from the society, we need our governments to help us.

Detoxification, rehabilitation, skilled training, and employment is the solution IMO. Global relapse rate's 90% +. The NGO I worked with managed to take it down to 75% cos of their intensive program (Detox, rehab, skilled training and providing them with job opportunities) but it required a hell lot of investment. The funds were raised through community, football tournaments, cricket tournaments, personal donations etc.

With the help of law enforcement agencies, social welfare department, anti narcotics force and community itself this problem can be solved IMO.

*There's always a way if we're comitted*

I'm anxious to get logged off and head home ... but a brief comment and maybe more tomorrow. But, I'm not sure I can agree with you Macha. It just sounds like the approach you're recommending is more wanting Big Brother to babysit. Seems like it attacks the symptoms and not the problem. Somebody in this thread was stressing individual responsibility. So on that note ... I'll support more education and prevention programs. I just don't know if I want to sink a bunch of cash into out control, irresponsible druggies.

Originally Posted by Macha

Frankie you hit the focking nail on the head with that post.

Green him then mate.

Someone has rightly said "Prevention is better than cure".

The prevention campaigns and drug education's there for a long time but what is the ultimate result? More and more people getting victim of heroin. I'm not saying reduce the prevention campaigns or end the drug education. What I'm saying is what should be done once a drug addict is treated and he sets his foot in the community.

methadone is a legally made drug marketed by the drug manufacturers and supported by many governements. it is far more dangerous physically than heroin in when administered in a clinical environment. The biggest adavnatge methadone has is that it is legal. If the people that are on methadone were givin clean pharmaceutical grade heroin in the same "maintenance" dosages in the same clinical environemnts they would have ess health problems and be able to function.
Addressing the addiction/crime/out of control situation wold entail restructuring the entire approach to drug education and interdiction. Leagalizing and regulating drug usage is the first step. Stop tellig folks frm age 0 that drug addiction excuses crime and anti-social behavior is the next step. There is so much bad information coming from supposed "authorities" that the biggest problem with drug "addiction" is caused by the folks that say that want it resolved.
Drug manufacturers do not want the true nature of "addiction" addresed, there is no profit in that. Drugs do not cure the addictive person. Counseling approaches today donto address the issue.
Man there is just no end to the vicious circle. In a perfect little bubble world we could start anew with proper education and understanding. There would be no interference from "special interests" or lopsided uneducated views. The current approach to this issue is locked on rails and the realignment of thought requires to accurately address the issue is maybe not even possible.
Almost all commonly accpeted methods are just fucking wrong.
While my previous post mentions methadone in response to the OP, it is just a symptom of the problem at hand, not the "drug problem" but the "methods and commonly accepted knowledge" problem.
Our education system does not address addictive tendencies, does not address the human frailty that fosters addictive behaviors. The drug education/treatment methods in use today cause much of the "problem" they are purported to address. The problme will never go away, ever. it is an incurable maladay that can only be reduced not ended. tryng to end drug dependency is like trying to put a complete stop to crime or prostitution; ain't gonna happen. By opening the book and taking an honest approach we may be able to make it easier to deal with.

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Originally Posted by Macha

Frankie you hit the focking nail on the head with that post.

Green him then mate.

Done it the time I finished reading his posts! I even green you for your contribution mate.

Just read this article and thought I'd share with you guys:

Is methadone more likely to kill you than heroin?

By Drs Marcel Buster & Giel van Brussel, MD
Municipal Health Service Amsterdam

Based on literature and analysis of mortality figures Dr Russell Newcombe concluded that methadone programmes as a form of harm-reduction possibly cause more victims than they prevent. We have doubts whether the conclusion about methadone is fully justified. Looking at the mentioned literature gives a one-sided view at the problem. Moreover, the conclusions drawn are beyond those justified by the results of the analyses. Several points of debate come to mind:

Methadone is not an innocent substance; 'one's methadone maintenance dose is another's poison' (2). A regular user of opiates develops a certain tolerance. Therefore, it is possible that a tolerant person can function normally with dosages which can be fatal to a non-tolerant person. Also, methadone dosage in the case of first entry to the programme has to be evaluated carefully. It is wise to begin with a low dosage that has to be increased slowly in the course of weeks or even months. At entry to the programme it has to be carefully evaluated whether a patient has a clear and unambiguous heroin dependence. In methadone maintenance programmes, methadone is dispensed to tolerant persons, moreover, this tolerance remains high because of daily use of methadone. Therefore, it is not surprising that deaths at the King's College Hospital caused by methadone were not those of participants of a methadone maintenance programme but were those of 'recreational' users of illicit methadone.

In cases where more than one drug is used, the drug responsible for death due to overdose is difficult to establish. Moreover, the same drug prescribed by physicians can also be bought on the street. In seventy percent of the deaths due to overdose studied in Glasgow and Edinburgh a combination of different drugs was found (3).

Prescribed drugs such as temazepam were often encountered in deaths in Glasgow. However, among only 14 of the 34 persons who died in 1992 and where temazepam was found, this was prescribed by their physician. Because of the presence of other drugs it is not clear whether temazepam really caused the death of these people. Probably the combination of these different drugs was fatal to them. This was also the case with the methadone deaths in Edinburgh. However, in Edinburgh, the authors could not determine whether methadone was prescribed or not. Both Hammersley and Obafunwa report that heroin/morphine deaths seldom occur in Edinburgh (4). 'The fall of the deaths due to overdose in the Lothian and Borders Region of Scotland (LBRS) after 1984 reflects in part the strict policing that took place, in particular in the Edinburgh area'.

'The increase of methadone deaths is probably due to the introduction of a street trend to use this agent as a substitute to heroin'. The author suggests that methadone deaths are mainly caused by the use of illicit methadone.

Therefore, these figures suggest that participants of methadone programmes are at lower risk of death due to overdose. However, this does not mean that methadone is an innocent substance. The high and increasing number of methadone deaths in Britain is alarming and certainly needs more attention. The first priority should be to establish whether the methadone causing death has been prescribed within a methadone programme or bought on the street. It also should be evaluated at what point during the course of the methadone programme death takes place. Further instruction doctors prescribing methadone could be necessary. The use of non-prescribed methadone without medical supervision can lead to high risks, especially when it is used as a substitute for heroin in order to get a 'high' instead of to prevent withdrawal symptoms. Physicians have to be aware of this danger and they should make sure that the prescribed methadone (as well as other psycho-active drugs) does not end up in the 'grey market'

Fascinating stuff guys

Afew points that I may humbly add

1. Methadone is a joke, ( and I am not even going to justify its existence by backing my point up) Its a complete joke, heroin was invented in the 1880s in germany and in its own class it hasn't been superceeded because it is drawn from a naturally growing flora. Methadone is a syntethic and poor imitation

2. If you have ever used substitute sugar for example, you wil see that syntethic Vs organic is rarely a close competition

3. THC or hash, dope, weed, etc has been shown as a medical benifit for a lot of ilnesses including terminal conditions such as cancer or full blown aids. It provides relief for sufers of diseases as broad ranging as Parkinsons and Glaoucoma. It is often a potent enemy of the mainstream medicines. Being legalised in some parts of the world for these benifits, it shat up the industry. Oh fcuk you could hear them bleat, we have been found out. but the crappest (and bloody expensive) drug ever found its way on the market to fill the boots of the successful but illegeal natural THC. it's called Marinol. Its both expenive and crap and is marketed as a treatment better than natural THC without flouting the law. Natural greenery reverts to being totally illeagal again and this shit hits the markets, guarde by armed guards as it makes its journey (to make people feel a lot more ill). I was prescribed it once(I didnt renew).

I briefly dated a girl whose parents were both on Methadone. The girl had been exposed to a variety of drugs and junkies all her life, but fortunately had grown up to be pretty well adjusted, and had absolutely no interest in drugs herself.
The saddest thing about their situation is that the mother was dragged down into all of that by her love for the father. He ruined her life and gave her happiness at the same time. He died about 10 years ago as a few of his major organs gave up on him after years of alcohol and hard drug abuse. I only hope it had a positive effect on the mother, but as has been pointed out, it isn't that likely.

A couple of people have mentioned the lack of education when it comes to drugs. I find that surprising. When I was at school everyone knew that hard drugs were dangerous and you'd have to be a complete dick with suicidal tendancies to dabble with them. It still didn't stop everyone though. I think some people just try shit like that because it's taboo. The only way is to make the shit unavailable, but that is nigh on impossible too.

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

A couple of people have mentioned the lack of education when it comes to drugs. I find that surprising. When I was at school everyone knew that hard drugs were dangerous and you'd have to be a complete dick with suicidal tendancies to dabble with them.

The education materials are inacurate and also enable the "junkie" to distance himself from the responsibility for his own "addiction." It also leads people to believe, and become, useless and crimminaly active because well, that's what they've been told junkies do! Junkies are lowlifes and crooks, drugs wil take over your life.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. The world is full of functioning alcoholics. The hardest of illicit drugs are much less physically debilitating that alcohol, yet no more "addictive."

From your above post one can see that the current education medthods have fostered an abhorrence for "hard drugs" a decision that if you do these drugs wou will become a self destructing cess-pit and that if you do these drugs you will be pulled into an inescapable downward spiral.

This attitude, this dogma, is false, but by preachng it, by hammering these falsehoods into the brains of everyone from a very young age it becomes a fact for many. It just ain't so. The education philosophy and patterns create the very problem they are designed to address.

Most alcohol education discusses dosages, it goes into the levels of drunkeness you will experience, it shows fairly accurate levels of behavor changes and even levels of lost physical capabilities. The alcohol education may even discuss dependency and/or alcoholism in a fairly accurate manner. Alcoholism is an accepted risk of drinking for so so many. We are taught how to avoid it, the danger signs are openly discussed. Alcoholics are simply junkies of an acceptable drug; a far more dangerous and debilitating drug.

Conversly, drug education is filled with myth and scare tactics. One is left with an impression; do it once, uh oh; do it twice and you're on your way down man, an inescapable pit awaits; crime, prostitution, and a life of degeneracy. End of story.

Plenty of folks smoke a little smack now and again. It doesn't need to be injected to gain the full effect, rush and all. No ill affects, no addiction. The drug itself has far less long term physical effect than alcohol.

One has to only listen to the common discussions of friends suffering from alcohol 'addiction" vs. the same folks discussing a friend suffering from drug 'addiction' to understand the the social impact of the false 'education.' Hell, we even have different labels for the same affliction depending on whether, or not, it is acceptable alcohol or the dreaded 'drug.'

Once drug use comes out from under the social stigma it now enjoys it will be much easier to treat. The education has been massive and long term. A change in the manner in which we discuss and approch drugs will take genertions to make any real changes.

The current thoughts and & feelings fostered by the bombardment of anti drug dogma almost from birth willbe hard to realign. Even educators, researchers and counselors have grown up with the false "facts" and even when they are confronted with the evidence do not completely release their orientation, a difficult, if not impossible task is to reverse the indoctrination of a lifetime.

Even I after years of living among folks that treatede heroin much as we would a bottle of wine with conversation or a few beers with friends see remnants those attitudes within my self. Given time, perhaps we can come up with an answer to the subject of additicion and anti-social behavior, first by speaprating them, realizng they are not one in the same.

The current approach to education doesnt work. Recognizing this and realizing the the faslehoods and indoctrination will take [i]at least[/] ageneration to reverse is a first step in addressing the situation. To be honest I do not have an idea what to replace the current methodologies with. The first step in repairing anything is identifying where they are broken. Education & social attitudes are that place.

People have blamed unemployment, lack of alternative entertainment, and any number of social ills for the "drug problem." While these may be factors, understanding the true risks involved in the use of all drugs, tobacco and alcohol included, is sorely lacking. Folks like gettng high; always have, always will. We need to help them accuratley understnad what it is they are doing when they do.

A great post!

I agree with much of what you say Frankie, but I would rather people are given falsehoods are scared off trying hard drugs than not given any info. And if I had kids I would try to scare them off trying drugs, too, rather than tell them the truth.

I know what you mean Marmite.

I have two friends whose sons were stereotypical heroin addicts and those families have gone through hell.
One of the boys eventually hung himself, but the other, now 35, is in and out of rehab and prison, has held his mother at knifepoint, stolen everything he could get his hands on, the family has had thugs breaking down the doors with baseball bats, it goes on and on.

The idea that their children may end up like this is indeed terrifying for parents.

Who could blame them?