The Thailand expat forum for Travel, Lifestyle and Fun.

mellow

^The brief overview of water chemistry is I'm sure welcome for many readers, but so far you have not shown how this external up-stand pipe works, and what happens to the water and sediment once it overflows out of it. A photo or diagram should be available.
I have no idea about Dalton's water chemistry, his personal business practices, nor how he made his feed. All I can say is that when I spoke with him, he did not strike me as incompetent. I'm sure he had test kits, and if the water was heavily fouled, he would know how to do a water change.
Please take the time to make a diagram, or take a couple of pictures with your phone, which illustrate the function of this external up-stand pipe, and what happens to the water once it overflows out of it.

tsicar

somewhere in amongst all my shit i have a memory stick with some pics, but for now it is missing. i will post more shit when i find it.
honestly, though, all the stuff you asked about has the answers in the previous posts, or in the link i posted, even a diagram. you should be able to work it out yourself.
and this must be boring everyone else just as much as it is boring me.
kinda getting a bit like the koi/comet debate of a few months ago, and i have no idea why.
do the "glass of dirty water" test yourself, and you should be able to understand what i have been talking about.

tsicar

i know everything about his water chemistry, how he made his feed and how he ran his business.


neither his investors nor myself thought he was incompetent,
he just found a better way to make money out of his "farm" than by actually producing fish to sell.

he had test kits and he knew his nitrites were too high, he just thought he could circumvent the known science, and it backfired in his face.

mellow

OK, hope you find your memory stick.

Spin

For the benefit of others, here is the .link . Thanks Tciscar!

Spin

Tsicar's explanation seems easy enough to understand Mellow, even for a rookie like me. Taking the feed from the bottom of the tank syphons out unwanted cack. Taking it from the top just takes relatively clean water by the sound of things.

mellow

Sound's good to me too, that's why I want to see how it's done. I actually have to lift a pipe for this. He says his system does this without any labor, all the time. I would like to see this. I would like to see where the water goes once it comes out of this external up-stand pipe. How the "clean water " is recirculated, how the water level is maintained in the tanks by just falling into the tank to increase oxygenation.
I feel behind the times in the systems that we have been using in the experiments and the current ones under construction. I actually have a regular stand up pipe which circulates water, and helps keep the water level in the tanks and filters. Then I have another pipe in each tank which has to be manually lifted to allow sediments to be flushed completely out of the system, with it's own exit pipe. To me this no labour approach is to say the least, very interesting. To me this is a new breakthrough which an untold number of fish farmers can benefit from. I am interested in the mechanics and the construction of something he has brought up, yet cannot produce any links, diagrams, or photos. Diverting attention away from this by skimming into brief comments on water chemistry, or Dalton's alleged actions or in actions , still does not illustrate this. Neither does eyeballing a glass with dirty water in it, to watch the dirt settle at the bottom.

tsicar

mellow, i sent you a pm. hope it explains a few things.
cheers

Smithson

[quote=mellow;1097063]The idea is to create whirlpool effect when having water return to the tank. This will send all the poo to the bottom center where a pipe leading to the overflow will draw it out.

The diagram below shows an 'aquaponics' system that produces both fish and organic veggies. I set up a similar system and found that the 'whirlpool' effect and bottom fed overflow was very effective.



Below is a pic of well established system producing heaps of vegies. This may not be commercially viable, but it's a great hobby that can also feed a family.



Here's a commercial system that isn't well established yet.

FISH TANKS


GROWING AREA




Young strawberries in columns with young tomatoes in the background

tsicar

thanx for the pix and the diagram, smithson. looks like a similar setup to the external one i was talking about, but with added advantage of bypass overflow in event of blockages.
important thing is that it takes the fouled water from the bottom, where most of it settles.
from here to the veg, then on to biofilter, or if you don't want to do veg, then normal septic-tank type system for processing of solids before return to biofilter. (i prefer the veggie step, tho!)

just a comment on the whirlpool: if the tank is circular and you have a circular motion of the water (whirlpool), the worst of the solids seem to congregate at the centre of the tank, so perhaps this should be where the syphon is positioned?
i seperate catfish fry that i accidentally syphon off while removing fungus and detrius from the hatchery tank this way: dump all the leftovers in a bucket and stirr it up, with a shaded area at one side of the bucket and a strong lamp above. strong fry that were accidentally sucked up will congregate under the sheltered part and the weak ones plus all the crap congregates at the centre, and this is easily syphoned off and discarded.

Smithson

This is correct, it's just that the diagram is simplified. The hose filling the tank also needs to enter at an angle rather than just dropping in.

The growbed is actually the biofilter filled with gravel. It operates on a flood and drain with a loop auto syphon (shown as B on the diagram). As a rule of thumb, the grow beds should be twice the size of the fish tank, so you can imagine just how much vegies can be produced. The only thing that needs to be added is chelated iron and maybe seaweed extract for micronutrients.

Worms can be added to grow beds also, however in my system I found they somehow appeared by themselves. Growers have reported that after more than a year of production, their growbeds remained clear of dirt and dead plant roots - thw worms ate everything.

The part at the bottom is a sump, the level fluctuates with the flood and drain cycle of the growbed. It must contain enough water to fill the the growbed and have the auto syphon kick in. Otherwise the sump will run dry and this system stops working.



Not sure if I've explained it clearly, if not let me know.

mellow

Thanks for the pictures, and diagram Smithson. The venturi drain is a very nice idea. Don't want the vegies, although very nice set up. Their filtering capacity is very nice, but it needs a lot of room. Would also increase the amount of labour needed.
The venturi drain is something which I will try and incorporate in future doings as my wife's fish farm evolves. But in a tank, I would still like to have a bottom drain, for obvious reasons. tsicar brought up aeration. I would like to tap other peoples idea about this. I am planning to use a Supercharger, whose air will be distributed via a manifold, delivered with air stones throughout the system. The system is of the recirculating type, with 51 tanks each holding 1 cu M of water.

tsicar

mellow, why not rather use your supercharger to both aerate and pump your water at the same time? look up info on "airlift systems".
your airstones are not going to be an efficient way to do it.
profit margin is low, and you have to keep your costs down.
there is an interesting section in that link i posted, where it describes a home made system like this on a farm in zambia. they used a turbocharger from a truck. you might get some ideas there.

Smithson

[quote=tsicar;1103468]This was the discussion in the AP forum, airstones aren't efficient enough, best to use the pump for aeration as well.

The profict margins are definitely low, I had did research for AP but decided due to the abundant water in Thailand, there's no way it could be profitable.

mellow

[quote=Smithson;1104457] That wasn't me quoting about air stones, or profit margin. But I do agree about keeping cost down.
I looked at that picture in the link, and with a trickle tower the only way I can see of putting more oxygen in the water would be to aerate the last filter chamber prior to the water being pumped up into the Bio. I think I would still need air stones though.
Whats the AP forum? Research the profitability of what? Fish farming or air stones?

Smithson

^ I was wondering about AP as a business, but it's not viable. The forum is here Backyard Aquaponics • Index page

If you're only looking at aquaculture, then don't worry about the diagram, AP is a balancing act - what's best for the fish isn't always best for the plants and visa-versa.

mellow

^ Only interested in Aquaculture, but a good link nonetheless. Could be profitable for you, if you were to concentrate on spices maybe. I know that some can be quite expansive. If you have done all that work, you should maybe look into that.

Smithson

^ If you're only interested in aquaculture the idea of tsicar regarding Plachon (snakeheads) sounds interesting. These are a nice eating fish and fetch a good price.

My present business does well enough, so no need to look for something new.I did the AP as a hobby, but don't really have the time for it. The pond I have set up could easily be configured to work like the system in the diagram, which I may do some day.

AP is a lovely concept, it's being taught in high school science lessons to explain the idea of 'closed loop' (no waste) environments and how waste products are actually resources.

Another idea was to set up a restaurant, where the AP system was visible and attractive. The idea of super-fresh organic food and fish may work.

tsicar

i have done a lot of research on the plachon. the only info available on farming these fish that i could find comes from thailand, and it is, as usual, subsistence-based non-scientific and antiquated.
given the physical properties and their hardiness, (high tolerance to poor water quality, plus they have sub-branchial organ like catfish so can breathe air),i would think that they could be farmed at extreme densities in a recirculating system, and the very poor fcr the thais are getting (you woulld get the same from any other fish if you used the thai approach),is can probably be attributed to what and how they are feeding and rearing them. anyway, even if you got a 1:3 fcr, you would probably score, since the selling price is so high.

mellow

Will investigate the Plachon angle. I will also have to find a fingerling supplier if the market value is high. I thought most of the fingerlings where caught in the wild for this fish. Either way I'm still looking for some good aeration ideas. Although I have seen a few supercharger set up I would like more info on those, should anyone have a good link on it. tsicar, the one you gave me primarily showed 3 water jets, said the supercharger had to be geared down, and that's it. Saw Dalton's, and a neighbor down the road has got one he just put in. But I think he's getting worried about my wife's set up, although he only sell fingerlings ( he also works at the goverment fish farm) and my wife has told him she plans on growing fish out for the market.