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  1. #101
    Thailand Expat jandajoy's Avatar
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    Apparently this one was in their back yard and a number of chickens had disappeared. Whilst I agree that it's a shame the creature was killed I don't believe they'd have slaughtered it for fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jandajoy
    Snake got in the wrong place at the wrong time. Such is life, or not, as the case may be. As far as extinction is concerned, surely that's the way of nature? Always has been and always will be. Species come and go.
    Problem is, with human 'civilisation' expanding there is less and less living room for animals to be not "in the wrong place at the wrong time", they increasingly are in the way or just there to be had.

    I see species going, but not coming - except for insects, which seem to strive alongside humans. Industry, housing blocks, shopping centers etc. come long after the groundwork has been done by people living in the outskirts.
    Thailand is not Australia.

  3. #103
    Thailand Expat jandajoy's Avatar
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    Fair comment but have they not just discovered a 1000 new species along the Mekong?

  4. #104
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    ^
    No idea. But I doubt that 1000 species have developed along the Mekong over the last few decades, unless there a Chinese nuclear powerstation upstream.

    Just saying how I see it and have learned from popular sources.
    It is not rocket science.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thetyim
    They live here they now the enviroment and how to sustain it.
    Sorry, completely wrong. Just look at the fires from the farming techniques burning native bushland and then moving on when they have taken all they can from that area. Look at the animals hunted to near extinction in all the bushland areas.....look at the numbers of birds in Los....not.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbkk
    Tossing something on a burning log is typically how you cook food when you have no respect for it, because it's 'found' food.
    Thats just stooopid, get back to your al a carte restaurant before your seat gets cold. You must look awful funny blessing your medium rare steak before hogging into it.


    I do not believe in the hunting of endangered animals. I have been against the abos in Oz being allowed to hunt their bush tucker simply because they have done it for hundreds of years, or mainly the excuse is for their 'culture'

    My view was, sure if they want to do it for their culture, then do it the way they did it years ago, with a canoe and a spear, boomerang and such....lets see how many of them want to continue doing it then....or simply line up at foodland.

    I lived in the torres straits in Oz for sometime, I saw one particular community island hunt Dugong so frequently....for culture....that they would then fill eskies with the meat and send by plane down south to relatives and sold etc.

    Dugongs are now hunted with speed boats, rifles and so on, I saw at least one dugong killed everyday on this island of only a couple hundred people. Many times these really wonderfull animals are left on the beach to die slowly, often their calves coming to the shore to look for their mother, to be shot also, not clubbed or speared.

    I have hunted and shot many animals in Oz.....the only native animals I have shot are kangaroos and possums....the roos for dog meat and the odd roo tail stew. The possums because the cnuts were making a racket on the roof.

    All other animals were feral or introduced species. Pigs, buffalo, donkeys, rabbits, foxes etc.....oh and several barramundi fish....but that another story.
    I like poisoning my neighbours dogs till they die cos I'm a cnut

  6. #106
    Have you got any cheese Thetyim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nawty
    Just look at the fires from the farming techniques burning native bushland and then moving on when they have taken all they can from that area.
    If you read my post I was talking about Thailand
    Where are you talking about ?

  7. #107
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    Population of Thailand was about 10m people 80 years ago, 60m today.

    Practices that were sustainable then, probably aren't now.
    Last edited by johnbkk; 21-12-2008 at 01:12 PM.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thetyim View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nawty
    Just look at the fires from the farming techniques burning native bushland and then moving on when they have taken all they can from that area.
    If you read my post I was talking about Thailand
    Where are you talking about ?

    Thailand does this also.

  9. #109
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    nevermind, pointless
    Last edited by johnbkk; 21-12-2008 at 02:49 PM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nawty
    Thailand does this also.
    Does it ?
    I thought "slash & burn" had finished in Thailand apart from the Yellow Leaf hilltribe and there is only about 100 of them left.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiff
    Problem is, with human 'civilisation' expanding there is less and less living room for animals to be not "in the wrong place at the wrong time", they increasingly are in the way or just there to be had.
    Human encroachment is certainly the cause of much of the problem in protecting endangered species. Where conservationists have made the most progress is when they take into account the needs of humans as well as the animals they kill. In many regions the wanton killing of animals has stopped or slowed simply because the locals have gained an understanding that a live animal is one of more value than used as a food source or means to acquire an income.

    Eco-tourism can have a positive impact on local economies as can be witnessed in many areas. As long as the locals benefit they will stop the killing.

    Educating and stopping the demand for "exotic" species is another way of putting an end to the supply. I see a much greater emphasis in conservation efforts to this approach. "Stop the buying and the killing will stop" comes to mind as one catch phrase used by folks who want to stop the slaughter of sharks.

    In Africa where parks border cultivated areas, funding is put aside to compensate farmers for loss of crop due to destruction by elephants or other protected species.

    All boils down to considering the needs of the local community as well as the animals. It's all too easy for countries not faced with starvation or poverty to chastise those who's very lives may be in the balance.

    In the case of this OP, it looks clear the gent is not starving and is simply doing what his parents and grandparents have "traditionally" done for years. It will take time and education to break the tradition. But again, to get the tradition stopped the education must show a live snake is of more value than the loss of the entire species. I.e., killing all the pythons will result in a big increase in rodents resulting in a big loss in rice as the rodents multiply unchecked by natural predators.

    As some have said, the "traditional" ways of life are not sustainable with the immense population growth of us humans and can only result in further species extinction. On the other hand breaking a "conservation law" is no deterrent to a starving person. Trick is to put some effort into making sure the human species is educated and protected from a poverty level which compels them to ignore conservation laws.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

  12. #112
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    do it the way they did it years ago, with a canoe and a spear, boomerang and such
    precisely

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by jandajoy
    Apparently this one was in their back yard and a number of chickens had disappeared
    Now what going to keep the bird flu under control..????

    I've eaten snake before back home on the farm (about 40 years ago) and I would rate it's taste as a poor man's chicken. My grandfather caught it trying to eat a small pig so he had it put down. So as I have heard snakes in certain parts of Australia are becoming a real problem again and after the protection laws were put in place.

    We had one about the size of JJ's in our factory on Soi Onnut and all we did was ring this bloke from the animal humane society, he turned up on motor cycle with a big bag, he had the snake in the bag in about 10 minutes and then drove off on the bike with this huge snake in the bag sitting on his lap.

    Probably ended up in China Town!
    Last edited by Loy Toy; 21-12-2008 at 04:02 PM.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mid View Post
    do it the way they did it years ago, with a canoe and a spear, boomerang and such
    precisely
    It is still done this way in the villages. Difference is the number doing it can make a serious dent in species populations.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton
    In the case of this OP, it looks clear the gent is not starving and is simply doing what his parents and grandparents have "traditionally" done for years. It will take time and education to break the tradition. But again, to get the tradition stopped the education must show a live snake is of more value than the loss of the entire species. I.e., killing all the pythons will result in a big increase in rodents resulting in a big loss in rice as the rodents multiply unchecked by natural predators.
    Agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by Norton
    On the other hand breaking a "conservation law" is no deterrent to a starving person.
    Agree again, but, as you noted yourself, in this case, no-one is starving.

    There are a lot of 'traditions' that are rightly dying out or under pressure. Child labour is one (poverty is a prime factor in this as well, but I'm sure no-one on this thread would advocate sending the village kids out to work in a sweatshop, no matter how poor the villagers), slavery another (again, no matter how poor, none of us would advocate the selling of villagers into slavery to benefit the others). But killing an endangered animal & parading its corpse for the camera is OK? Not in my book, I'm afraid.
    I think that's what got me in this thread more than anything. The enjoyment and pride shown by the kid (the younger generation) in parading the animal's corpse. That implies more than just hunger or necessity to me.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiff
    Do you take everything you read at face value, and assume it to be true?
    No, the point is the Aboriginals in Australia hadn't evolved much, if at all in 40,000 years. They had not even bothered to learn how to till the land until Western settlers arrived.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rural Surin
    Of course he does, he's a twat as well as a Eurocentric racsist.
    And you've got a chip on your shoulder and an inferiority complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Longprong
    many people of aboriginal descent are far more understanding of injustices, and are more compassionate than many europeans. Perhaps the fact that many have experienced these things first hand, often on a regular basis makes them so.
    Scots and Irish were suffering injustices and genocides for centuries even before Australia was discovered.

    Didn't stop them spreading their diaspora around the World and contributing more than their fair share to the advancement of mankind and human civilisation.
    Mortals you defy the Gods, I sentence you to travel among unknown stars, until you find the Kingdom of Hades, your bodies will stay as lifeless as stone.

  17. #117
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    Did the Abo's invent the wheel ??

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Rain
    But killing an endangered animal & parading its corpse for the camera is OK? Not in my book, I'm afraid. I think that's what got me in this thread more than anything. The enjoyment and pride shown by the kid (the younger generation) in parading the animal's corpse. That implies more than just hunger or necessity to me.
    As I stated what we see in the pics has naught to do with hunger. It has everything to do with "tradition". The pride you see in the boys face is part of that tradition found throughout societies having a hunting tradition. The hunter is proud and happy he has come home with a kill and likely has no knowledge the snake is endangered.

    As shocking as it may seem to some, the practice of killing and eating animals is part of village life. Nobody runs down to the supermarket to pick up a chicken for supper. They simply grab and kill the nearest fat one which may well have been treated almost like a pet for a couple of years. There is nothing that somehow puts a taboo on killing and eating a snake or any other animal so naturally the boy would show no shame or remorse. It is a way of life.

    Google any hunting site and you will find pictures galore of hunters celebrating though photos the results of their hunts. Note the same pride of accomplishment seen in the young boys eyes as you will see there.

  19. #119
    Thailand Expat Johnny Longprong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorTud
    Scots and Irish were suffering injustices and genocides for centuries even before Australia was discovered. Didn't stop them spreading their diaspora around the World and contributing more than their fair share to the advancement of mankind and human civilisation.
    A very interesting point ET. Fact is that much of Australia's early immigration came from these two "countries". Most of the Scottish immigrants were left overs from the clearances, and seeking a chance they took up positions in the colony with the Irish, positions with the big English pastoral companies which were busy raping and pillaging the available resources. They were well pleased for the opportunity and helped to "advance" "civilisation" in Australia.

    The most interesting thing with these two groups was their empathy with the displaced aboriginals, much to the disapproval of their employers. Maybe being basically a tribal people themselves, they could understand what pain the aboriginals were going through. It is well documented, and many of the kind actions by those people at that time is to the credit of their communities.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorTud
    No, the point is the Aboriginals in Australia hadn't evolved much, if at all in 40,000 years. They had not even bothered to learn how to till the land until Western settlers arrived.
    Oh, I didn't know there was an obligation to "evolve" and till the land. And I am not sure how it follows from this "point" that abos and Thais are lazy?

    Anyway, never mind, the topic has moved on...

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiff
    Oh, I didn't know there was an obligation to "evolve" and till the land.
    There isn't, but nearly all other races of humans have, or become extinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Longprong
    Fact is that much of Australia's early immigration came from these two "countries"
    I think you'll find Scotland still is and was a country. No need for the quotation marks to suggest otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Longprong
    positions with the big English pastoral companies which were busy raping and pillaging the available resources.
    There were several British companies involved, no need to single out the English.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Longprong
    The most interesting thing with these two groups was their empathy with the displaced aboriginals,
    That's interesting, as the Scots were busy trading slaves to the Americas from Africa during this period in history, and many Scots, and to a lesser extent Irish were making good livings from the subjugation of others in the British Empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Longprong
    Maybe being basically a tribal people themselves
    You could make refutable comparisons with the clans to 'tribal people' but not the lowlanders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Longprong
    they could understand what pain the aboriginals were going through. It is well documented, and many of the kind actions by those people at that time is to the credit of their communities.
    Just as many were involved in the genocide and indiscriminate killing of Aboriginals.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorTud
    I think you'll find Scotland still is and was a country. No need for the quotation marks to suggest otherwise.
    Yes you are right. However from the English point of view it was perhaps a country in name only.





    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorTud
    There were several British companies involved, no need to single out the English.
    Yes I meant British, but we both know what that meant.



    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorTud
    That's interesting, as the Scots were busy trading slaves to the Americas from Africa during this period in history, and many Scots, and to a lesser extent Irish were making good livings from the subjugation of others in the British Empire.
    Yes, whilst many of their countrymen lived as virtual slaves in their own "country". Many of these slavers and exploiters retained status and power whilst their fellow countrymen went begging. Quite shameful really.



    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorTud
    You could make refutable comparisons with the clans to 'tribal people' but not the lowlanders.
    Many of those in the lowlands were the offspring of displaced highlanders and still retained tribal/clan ties. In fact many of these clans emigrated and continued a clan lifestyle in their new countries. The person mentioned below was part of a clan in the Monaro district of NSW. He and his family were recruited as shepherds because of their previous experience in highland grazing.


    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorTud
    Just as many were involved in the genocide and indiscriminate killing of Aboriginals.
    Perhaps.
    Times were tough and competition for land was tight. There were the inevitable clashes and massacres on both sides.
    I quote from the memoirs of David Mc Donald who arrived in Sydney in 1839 as an eleven year old child. He wrote in 1900 after an interesting life as a farmer, grazier, goldminer and journalist. "On the day we landed there were 7 men hanged for the massacre of a large number of blacks, men, women and children at Myall Creek and there seemed to be great public sympathy with the culprits than with the helpless creatures whose wives and country had been taken from them. A Sydney newspaper deprecated so many hangings, especially for a thing so habitual as the killing of the blacks..."

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by November Rain
    But killing an endangered animal & parading its corpse for the camera is OK? Not in my book, I'm afraid. I think that's what got me in this thread more than anything. The enjoyment and pride shown by the kid (the younger generation) in parading the animal's corpse. That implies more than just hunger or necessity to me.
    As I stated what we see in the pics has naught to do with hunger. It has everything to do with "tradition". The pride you see in the boys face is part of that tradition found throughout societies having a hunting tradition. The hunter is proud and happy he has come home with a kill and likely has no knowledge the snake is endangered.

    As shocking as it may seem to some, the practice of killing and eating animals is part of village life. Nobody runs down to the supermarket to pick up a chicken for supper. They simply grab and kill the nearest fat one which may well have been treated almost like a pet for a couple of years. There is nothing that somehow puts a taboo on killing and eating a snake or any other animal so naturally the boy would show no shame or remorse. It is a way of life.

    Google any hunting site and you will find pictures galore of hunters celebrating though photos the results of their hunts. Note the same pride of accomplishment seen in the young boys eyes as you will see there.
    I understand that, but as I stated, some traditions are wrong and need to die out. I may be one of a minority that believes this about the python in the pictures. Most people on here seem to think it's fine. I'm not sure how educated people think it's justifiable to kill an endangered animal because of tradition or 'they don't understand what endangered means'
    Having said that less than 200 years ago beating children to death for not working fast enough was justifiable in UK. So was them dying in horrific accidents in factories and mills. No-one cared. There were expendable. Thankfully, in the West at least we've learnt that's not the case. Maybe in another 200 years Asians will learn that these animals aren't expendable, either. By that time, of course, they'll be extinct.

  24. #124
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    Realistically speaking, what are the options for the snake?
    Let it go and it will be back to eat the chicken and possibly be a danger to the kids. Chuck it in the fields and who knows where it would turn up again, only to be slaughtered by someone else.

    Personally, I'd keep it as a pet, it'd keep the mice out of the house, but that's not everybody's gusto, nor a general solution.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Rain
    Yes you are right. However from the English point of view it was perhaps a country in name only.
    Unlikely given the Enlightenment and the contributions towards religion, culture, education, politics, philosophy and engineering that Scotland provided during the 1800's.

    Arguably it was the centre of civilisation during that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Longprong
    Yes, whilst many of their countrymen lived as virtual slaves in their own "country".
    There was repression of certain elements of Scottish society but they were never slaves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Longprong
    Many of those in the lowlands were the offspring of displaced highlanders and still retained tribal/clan ties.
    A more accurate description of clan society would be feudal, not tribal.

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