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  1. #101
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    ^Whore
    Wouldn't have clue what to send anyway.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by friscofrankie View Post
    Those loves look damn near perfect! The method you relate is almost exactly how I ferment my bread now and I am getting fairly consistent results. Still fighting the flatness though.

    The first hour proofing is crucial; wait too long and the second proofing doesn't rise well, the crumb, too fine. I let my sponge rise now for about 4 - 8 hours. this is a barely pourable dough that I tunr out onto the board with about 25% of the remaining flour. I knead enough dough in as quickly as I can.

    Made a nice 12" loaf the other day, but I waited too long in the first proofing and the loaf, although it rose, was too finely crumbed with little oven spring (HOT oven too) and no height.

    So. Next loaf the sponge will contain more flour and be allowed to ferment over night, I will knead as before and strictly enforce the one hour first proof rule. This, hopefully will give me more height. From what I've read, wild yeasts tend to give a wetter dough and take longer to rise. My starter is very active and after a feeding it blooms quite rapidly.

    Eating all the bread I make and may have to take a break from baking for a week, too much of a good thing and all.
    I was having the same problem with lack of rise, since I started cutting back on the salt, I now get a more oven spring than I now what to do with. The 8'' rolls turned out near perfect (got to be careful here, If a boast too much will score a red from Stroller).
    Nice consistant texture through out, excellent flavour and the size (crust to volume) seems to work out well with the limited grunt I have in my shit oven.
    Putting some nice design features into my new oven, separate steam injection system, solid stone hearth using the insulated building bricks. So will see how it works out.
    There canít be good living where there is not good drinking

  3. #103
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    That is perfect, air pockets an all. Just like an English Farmhouse Loaf.

  4. #104
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    This is a great thread. Thanks for this FF. Can't green you yet but will
    first chance I get.

  5. #105
    Thailand Expat El Gibbon's Avatar
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    Time to raise and salt.

    I really don't like to taste salt in my bread so I generally use slightly more than 1/2 of what is called for in just about every recipe.

    I have found that timing the raise is of little help to me. I go strickly by the size, regardless of how long it takes I don't let it raise more than twice the volume I started with.

    When I punch it down I really go after it and knead again without adding any flour for loaves in pans. I usually end up with about slightly less than a half pan of dough when I start the second raising period.

    As soon as it reaches the top of the pan I turn the oven on. Usually I end up with a decent oven rise and get a pretty consistent loaf.

    For free form loaves I add enough flour in the second kneading to insure I've got a really stiff dough and let it raise to full height and then place in a hot oven.

    The difference is starting the oven either hot or cold depending on the loaf style.

    Now if I could just learn to throw away my mistakes, cause they don't look good... riiiiiiiiiiiight!

    But hey, everyone is in search of the perfect loaf time after time.

    BTW if you have a great Hoagie roll recipe, post it please.

    E. G.
    "If you can't stand the answer --
    Don't ask the question!"

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Gibbon
    BTW if you have a great Hoagie roll recipe, post it please.
    Soon as I get this fuckin' bread right I'm gonna work on one

    With wild yeasts you don't always want to rise and "punch down" THe first hour is just to get the yeast working, this would normally take a lot less time with a full recipe inoculation of domesticated yeasts and is not necessary.

    Wild yeasts are just not engineered to rise quickly. You never know, you may get one that does. With this I am having best results by NOT doubling the first go around and strictly enforcing the one hour rule. I tried the double then punch down. failed miserably

    I think more flour. The loaves are quite delicate when fully risen. I am get best results with a well heated oven, but I am looking for a chewy/crunchy crust. Transferring the loaves from their resting place tothe oven is a bitch. Finally oiled and coated a plated with cornmeal, dust the stone with cornmeal slip the loaf loose onto the (well heated stone). a more robust dough that is not over kneaded is needed


    Four hours barely gives a doubled loaf volume and the loaf gives a bit when it gets shaken loose of the plate. The bread has an unbelievable flavor rich and nutty with a generous tang to it. It's a bit heavy and the crumb...

    On the salt, I agree less is more, I have reduced/increased the salt; the low salt renders the best crumb. am not using any one recipe but an amalgam of recipes From memory and what I am reading. When my loaves look like this:

    I'll be happy.
    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty -- T. Jefferson


  7. #107
    Thailand Expat El Gibbon's Avatar
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    ^ sounds reasonable

    Two things help control the raise level. One is sugar that feeds the little yeastie buggers and the other is salt which inhibits the same.

    Have never understood why use both but don't need to I guess.

    Maybe less salt or more sugar ????? will get your height.

    Interesting problem since it 'seems' to ignore the rules of bread making.

    E. G.

  8. #108
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    Following my devasation at discovering my Vegemite had gone, and to stop the whinging from my small ones for the same, I baked them a Pizza. The base uses the same pre-ferment as for the bread although I usually add a little more salt in ito the final dough. I make about 10 batches, divide them into 250 gms peices and place into the freezer. This way they are ready to use after thawing and final proofing.
    Cost by the way is about 20 baht for the base ingrediants,
    1/3 of a 250gm block of Ozzie Mozzarella = 50 Bt,
    Half packet ham, 35 bt and the tomato for the base I make myself but say 15 Bt.
    So for approx 120 + Bt you get a really good 13" pizza, baked the way you I like it. Paper thin cracker base, nice chewy rim and decent toppings.



    My kids can demolish 75% of one of these pizzas between the two of them.


    Daddy ! you may be a pot bellied, useless "kee Nok" Farang, but you make a fine Pizza.

  9. #109
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    This is the best loaf so far great crumb have to ait onthe crsut but it's lookin good. the height to diameter is much better.


    My starter has taken on an extremely sour tang to it, This I like. it is propably due to elevated temperatures and keeping it active all the time.
    The stone & grill assembly fell as I threw the loaf but the bread didn;t collapse.
    I used most of my starter, abot 1.5 cups or so. added in enough flour to make a batter/dough too stiff for pancakes but not stiff enough for bread and let that proof over night. I added a scant half teaspoon of salt and a few drops of water; stirred that down and let set abut an hour or so til it almost doubled in size.

    I then turned that (wet) dough out onto the table with about 1 - 3/4 cup of flour and kneaded until it was just workable and was just slightly sticky. worked it into a small ball and set that in a basket wrapped in a dusted cloth (I used rye flour for dusting). I let that rest until about double+ (abt 4 hrs). Baked at the highest setting the oven would hold spraying inside the oven twice in the first few minutes.

    The crumb is not as open as I'd like but is only slightly moist with gas bubbles integrated nicely throughout I can live with this as it is tender and light. By using a larger recipe next time I am confident that the loaf will gain height without spreading.

    Perhaps waiting a bit longer during the last rise will yield a better loaf, but this one? Hot from the oven it has a tangy taste and light crumb, not dense or heavy. This might make them hoagie rolls E.G. Less steam would yield a lighter crust.

    this is by far the best tasting loaf with the best texture. I will not change tecnique but will increase the size of the loaf next time; see how it goes.

  10. #110
    Sauerkraut stroller's Avatar
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    Well done!

  11. #111
    Thailand Expat El Gibbon's Avatar
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    Damn, now wish I had started with making Sour Dough. The regular ole white bread is going well now, repeatable and respectable. Tried a Cinnamon loaf last night and it was a total flocking failure, bread was fine but the Cinnamon migrated to one spot at the bottom of the loaf.

    Ah, well, tasted great as toast this AM... gotta eat the mistakes you know.

    Well done FF on the last loaf, am jealous, don't know how a Sour Hoagie would work... hmmm possible to add some dill to the dough?

    E. G.

  12. #112
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    Dill, Rosemary, dried basil, any dried herb will do. Onions or Garlic maybe? onion & garlic bread/rolls... Go real nice with these so-called Eye-talian sausages I found, Not really Eye-talian, more like a hot link without the dried chili...

    OK one more Big loaf when this one's almost gone; then on to some rolls for some grilled sausage hoagies.

  13. #113
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    Damn, where did ya get those Ey talian sausages?? I got to have a few kilo of them to bring home when I come up, I sure do miss those Farmer John Hot links I used to buy when I lived in Mexico and made my monthly shopping trips to the wholesale meat houses in Chula Vista/ San Diego.

  14. #114
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    Chula Vista; spent the first few yeas of my life there.

    The sausages are sold out of a freezer in the mall area at lotus, 289 a kilo twofer on weekends. They ain't spicy but they got a nice flavor, smoked and make a decent substitute for links

    The brand Name is EZ-somthing. I gave the stand a miss for a few years here. wanted to try something different for beans, one day. Most of the sausages are nothing to write home about but these are pretty decent.

  15. #115
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    OK. Finally got the fuckin loaves to stop spreading out. Also have made some improvements in the crust (proper equipment does help).


    AS you can see, oven spring is not what I had hoped for but it is improving. I forgot this loaf last night soit sat out proffing for about 6 - 7 hours. A tad long should be quite sour, the starter has taken on a stronger vinegar-like smell when added to hard wheat flour to build the poolish -> loaf, the aroma becomes delicious.

    when I finally remembered the loaf it was too late too bake so I let it proof overnight in the refer. It had fallen a tad this mornign but allowing it come up in temp brought it back to original size.

    Taking more care than before I transferred the loaf to the stone and sprayed the loaf and oven with a mister. I am afraid the crumb may be too dense but will go shopping for some butter cheese and pastrami This is sandwich-sized loaf and I am eager to try it out afer it cools I'll post a pic of the internals so y'all can see how the crumb ends up

  16. #116
    Sauerkraut stroller's Avatar
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    Awesome, Frankie!

    I had to bin my 3rd batch after returning from CM, because the missus didn't feed it - gone mouldy.

    I got some acceptable results before, except for the crust; since I "bake" in a cooking pot I don't get enough heat from the top.

    Btw, if you catch it when it just starts going mouldy, just scrape the bad bits of the top and add some more flour and water. The renewed action of the yest kills of the other whatever got in there.
    Last edited by stroller; 16-05-2007 at 06:35 PM.
    "this message is hidden because the turdsniffing oaf is on your ignore list"

  17. #117
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    The Crumb

    Not exactly what I'm lookin for, but not as dense as I was worried it might be. I bake most these loaves at about 280 c. when I started I was baking at abut 220.

    The crust is not as deep as it appears here, we're still very near the end of hte loaf. Next loaf I'l ltry and stabilize the oven at about 250 this may allow for more oven spring and a more open crumb.


    Stroller if you keep a small portion of your starter in the refer in an old myo jor or whatever, it'll keep for a week to ten days without feeding. I usually back up my mix every couple of loaves keep the stuff in the refer fresh. just put about a hald cup in the jar bung in a couple table spoons of flour and half as much water let it get going, cap it and stick it in the refer.

  18. #118
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    Looks great Frankie The colour and crust look superb, Baking at 280 deg c, bit hot for me but the domestic ovens vary in temp indication, thats a problem I had until I brought into use a IR remote temp indictor I use for taking tire temperatures at the track. Its dead accurate and you don't even need to ope the oven door.
    I am experimenting with coffee and fruit drinks at the moment (the poofs call them Frappe) so got lazy on the baking. Your energising me into action again now that kids are back in school and I have more time.

  19. #119
    Sauerkraut stroller's Avatar
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    How is it going there, Frankie?

    I am getting some decent results, by my own low standards:

    A Caraway loaf, sourdough with a sprinkle of dried yeast to boost.

  20. #120
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    That sprinkle of Dried yeast seems to help. I willnot give up on my all natural method just yet. I did get a batch of flour with bugs in it they laid eggs and on adding the flour to my starter I got these little worms crawling out of my starter hads to trash it. I've got my back up in the fridge so I'll give it another go this week. I've been buying bread lately and not that much of it as that. Bought a so-called loaf of sour-dough and it wasn't. Dense and as much flavor as common white sandwich bread, it has inspired me to break out teh back up starter and build aloaf or two. Thanks for the bump.

  21. #121
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    Hi Franky,
    I enrolled on Teakdoor just because I found your sourdough thread
    I live in BKK and probably it is much more difficult to find any living bacteria here in the air, with all the pollution! I managed once ( it was upon reqeust of a chinese lady living in Sapan Kwai, as she wanted to start a sourdough bread bakery to serve the uppermarket supermarkets )
    but after that had one week no time to feed my dough so it just died in my fridge. I use only whole wheat flour and bottled water, but indeed it needs a lot of care, and I have to stir at least 5 times a day, in order to avoid mold.I am busy now with a second " batch" and hope I will succeed again, but please explain me just how you keep it alive in the fridge.
    sourdough greatings
    Gee
    PS I am also a pickler

  22. #122
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    ^
    For the mold, a squish of vinegar seems to help, and feeding it more often. I've had that problem too.

  23. #123
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    Vinegar can work this can be one of he byproducts of sour dough, sourdough is usually comprised of yeast and lactobactilli. lactobactilli come in many forms and mostly produce lactic acid some produce acetic acid (vinegar) I've kept my yeasties going for weeks with out touching them, I usually get them going give them a good feeding cover and put in the fridge immediately. It takes some time to get them going on some occasions but usually I rotate crops, so to speak I will add my back up to a batch in preparation for the next days loaf and before working it up will split off a big batch of starter, feed it, split it and put a backup in the fridge keeping a going colony on the counter top this gets fged every (or every other) day.
    So far it's been working I have learned to keep opened flout packages thightly sealed them worm things were just Too unappetizing for me...

  24. #124
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    I have never had any luck with free sporing, dunno why just can't get enough to get any volume in the bread. The best sourdough I have ever made was when i did some work with Arnotts in Australia on a comtinuous fermentaion system for cracker biscuits, I got some guys I knew from over from Pepperidge farm so in between working on this system we would make the best fvcking sourdoughs you ever tasted. The Pepperidge guys brought planty of Lacto starters and when you get 6 Phds in a lab trying to outdo each other, you do get results. We had Arnotts baking laboratory at our disposal, fully equipped with every thing, farinographs, extensograph, all sorts of testing machiney and the the best bakery equipment available. We brewed lots of piss as well, all sorts of brews although that was all done under the counter. as it were. Eventually we had the process down pat, all documeted but sadly I lost all the notes over time.

  25. #125
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    Yeast likes lower temps than lactobactilli here inthe north I get pretty fair results, but as is documented here I do have trouble getting a good gaseous ferment, it is sour though. I jsut dumped my backup into a bowl of flour, the backup colony had a dark almost black liquor floating on top with a nice alcohol/vinegar smell to it. Made some past and after having a bite to eat there is some activity already. This backup has been tightly sealed in my fridge for at least 6 weeks. Should be baking bread by Friday.
    Saturday at the latest.

    I used rice to catch my spores simply because I though there would be better chance of a strong, viable yeast culture starting on it in this region. I could have been wrong and might try some potato water and flour see if the results are different.
    No Phd. no sophisticated lab, with luck and cooler weather I might just get a decent second culture going, though.

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