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  1. #26
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    blackgang's Avatar
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    Well Yea, It would have to be covered with a cloth as just like brewing beer, the small flys/gnats will get in your mix if not covered to allow yeast expansion and air to get in.

  2. #27
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    ^think it's the "clean" part that fucked 'im up
    I mentioned cheesecloth but any similarly porous cloth will do.
    BTW stroll, what the hell, let it go ya never know what you might've caught; could be delicious!
    Them "Ol' Sourdoughs" workin' the trails back in the 18th & 19th century US weren't the cleanest of folks!
    Last edited by friscofrankie; 31-01-2007 at 10:04 AM.
    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty -- T. Jefferson


  3. #28
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    The missus fed half of it to our litle puppy this morning, mixed with sardines!
    Ohwell, gives the yeast more space to rise, I guess...

  4. #29
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    add flour & water in equal amounts to make up the difference, simple as that.

    I was going to make pancakes this morning. found out I have no soda, While not absolutely necessary, soda makes the time to wait before cooking 'em almost none. without it I would have had to wait an hour or two for the batter to be ready. Pancakes for one? Just not worth the hassle. This weekend, maybe I'll invite the kid and his GF for pancakes. He's always up for a free meal... Experimental or not.

  5. #30
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    To hell with Bisquits I'm gonna make bread!

    I could wait til I get a nice piece of stone for working the bread and another to cook it on. These things make the bread making more interesting and the baking stone would give the bread some more interesting characteristics But Like Nike says, "Just do it" Let's find out if the starter is any good.
    First thing I've got to do is start up a "sponge" This is really just a thick batter or thin dough made with most of my starter a cup of all-purpose flour and a cup of "bread flour." you could use Rye flour or whole wheat flour instead of the "bread flour" it's all I could find and really want to keep it simple first time out.

    The sponge should rise over anywhere from a couple hours to eight hours or so. First time out don't really know what my colony of yeast & lactobacilli is gonna do. Anyway, The sponge we want to rise sometime today so I prepared a nice warm place for all them bacteria and yeasty beasties to multiply.

    The light will give us plenty of heat to warm this small area in my brand new oven so we can start making bread in a few or hours or so...

    Now we take almost all of the starter I've been nursin and feeding every day or two and dump it in a bowl with the flour mixture Mix up to a consistency of overly thick pancake batter or you could make ita very dry mix there are differing schools of though on this. I've heard that a dryer "sponge" is better for a tangier flavor; again, first time out let's go with the more commonly accepted method to ensure optimum results.


    Pop that baby in the hot box you've set up or if the weather's fine cover it with a cloth and set it on the counter we're lookin for temps in the 85 F + range,


    Make sure you reserved a half cup or so of your starter; add about a half cup - whole cup flour and eaqual amount of clean water. go ahead and put that the same place you put the sponge to get active. After it gets bubbling we'll cover it and lock it in the refer until we need it again.


    Now, we wait. I'm doin this live so I don't really know how it's gonna turn out we'll find out together, eh? If it fails miserably at least you'll all know what NOT to do with your own batch.
    Gimme a couple hours and lets see what happens

    Last edited by friscofrankie; 02-02-2007 at 02:12 PM.

  6. #31
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    While that's heatin up. we can discuss teh reason for the tanginess of real sourdough bread. Sourdough made from wild caught yeasts is really a symbiotic colony of yeast and bacteria called "Lactobacilli." There are any number of strains of this bacteria and the all produce lactic acid some produce acetic acid as well. Most domesticated yeasts cannot stand the highly acidic environment set up by these bacteria.

    The wild caught yeast that do thrive in this environment thrive due to the lack of competition from other organisms they in turn produce alcohol and carbon dioxide. The alcohol and acidic conditions protect the colony from invaders.

    Now, it is said that the longer I let my sponge work the tangier my bread will be. Although the yeasts are acid resistant the acidic conditions make for a slower rising bread.

    We'll see....

  7. #32
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    After about five hours I had something could work with. Really could've waited a few more hours for things to get really cookin' but the aroma was tangy and rich, seemed to be a flavor I could live with;


    Start by adding your salt, about a half to whole teaspoon here, then a half - full cup of the bread flour and spoon knead it, adding about a half-cup of flour as you go until the dough is pulling away from teh sides of bowl. I think I added anothe half cup after this shot.


    Clean off the kitchen table wipe it off a bit and spread some flour out where you're gonna work. Be a bit more generous than I was here but this worked out OK


    now, dump out all your dough, sprinkle a generous handful of flour over the ball, start Kneading it. using the heel of your hand push down and out folding back in compressing and stretching it out again. Add flour to the surface between stretches so it doesn't stick (if it does just scrape it up add it the ball and add the flour)
    Stretch:


    Compress:


    I worked this about 10 minutes, it's a very small batchwhen I had real nice elastic dough ball that was just slightly difficult to ball up without seams I placed it in a large bowl pre-oiled with extra-virgin olive oil, use what ever light cooking oil you have. I drixxled some extra oil on top as the coating in the bowl was a bit thin the just sort of rolled it around in the bowl to evenly coat the entire dough ball:


    Cover with plastic wrap to give even better protection from drying out


    Now put this back in the same spot you chose to let the sponge work. couple three hours when she's doubled in size we'll take her out form up a decent shaped loaf, rest it for a half hour to an hour and bake at about 400 degrees F (About 200 c)

  8. #33
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    ChiangMai noon's Avatar
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    This is starting to be really good.
    that last pic even looks like bread.
    how is yours coming on Stroller?

  9. #34
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    Nothing yet, I suspect it's just too cold here.
    I'll give it another day before I'll mix some more flour in, maybe I added too little originally?

    Amazing, when you want to keep some rice to eat later, it goes off within a day, when you're waiting for something to happen to it, it remains the same...
    "this message is hidden because the turdsniffing oaf is on your ignore list"

  10. #35
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    A light bulb in a cardboard box can bring the temp up enough. You should have added (by volume) eagual amounts of water and flour to the whatever amount of dry rice you started with. If it's just plain sittin' there and not going "off" I'd say you have some activity you can't see. it's rather cool here as well (hence the light bulb in the oven trick) You should have been feeding it every other day at least with a cup of flour and one of clean water. If you use chlorinated water this may kill all the yeast and lactobacilli. If not feed it. NOW! give it a real good stirring and watch it; if it starts to bubble or foam a bit it's active, however feebly. I use all-purpose flour for the starter it's easier for the yeasts to digest but some whole grain flours are even better Rye flour is a good starter food.

    The wild yeasts are acid resistant but if the acidity of the brew gets too high it can retard the growth of the yeasts. You may want to dump all but a half cup overboard then add the flour & water. Feed it the next day then every other day with a cup each of water & flour. when you get the amount you want to hold onto dump a cup and feed teh cup each every other day. When it's live make some br4ead keep a half cup of the starter add the cup each let it warm up and get active for an hour or two then cover and refrigerate.

  11. #36
    Sauerkraut stroller's Avatar
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    Done!
    Yeah, it's bubbly, something's happening!
    It lives.

  12. #37
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    Horay!!

  13. #38
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    Long live the yeast !

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by stroller
    Done! Yeah, it's bubbly, something's happening! It lives.
    It's ALIVE!!! if it doesn;t go bad then something was happening.. very cool

    Well after about 4 or five hours the dough has risen to almost do

    was plannign to get this done tonight so time to get things movin'
    DUmp the risen dough outonto a floured surface and punch it down a bit.
    Kind of rol teh dough under itself to form a somewhat smooth, semless surface on teh top and sides while shapinbg hte loaf as you want it.


    Now I don;t have apeel or a baking stone (yet) so I gently placed the loaf on a greased baking pan. If I had a stone & peel I would have left the loaf where it was preheated my oven with teh stone inside with lots of cornmeal sprinkled on it. Oh, yeah couldn't find cornmeal on short notice either.
    Instead I put it on the pan to rest maybe even rise a bit more for about a half hour. Now I'm going to pre-heat the oven see if I can't regulate teh heat to stay somewhere in the 375 - 400 range. first time with teh oven no thermostat....


    Whiler I'm not 100% sure the dough has risen enough or the mix is quite right The smell of this loaf already tells me I've captured a nice tangy culture and some futher experimentation with it is worth pursuing. Now I've got to run off and see if I can;t jury-rig soem kind of spray/steam apparatus to get that chewy crust...

  15. #40
    punk douche bag
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    it's a truly informative thread frankie but it seems like the most god awful amount of work for a loaf of bread.

    can't you just dip a normal off the shelf loaf into something tangy or fill it with a good blue cheese?

  16. #41
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    ^Obviously a Man that's never tasted truly great sourdough bread!!

    It's fun and in reality, apart from the one-time germinating the starter, I've got a total of about an hour in it. Most of the time it just sites there while I work or watch a movie.

    I've scored the top of he bread to allow for expansion into a (hopefully) decorative pattern:


    just before setting teh loaf in the oven I placed a small ceramic bowl of water on the bottom this will generate some steam that, in theory, will help to gelatinized the protiens on the exterior of the loaf giving it that chewey sourdough crust.


    I poked a couple of holes in the top of this emptied soy sauce bottle after setting the loaf in the oven I used it to spray down the sides and metal bottom of the oven to generate a nice cloud of steam to get the thing going...

    Crude? Oh, Yeah. Effective??? Dunno, we'll see.

  17. #42
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    I really think I am missing something here, so ok your dirty scummy thingy has a yeast infection or STD, yet this is good, now your gonna turn your STD into a meal...

  18. #43
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    ^Exatcly!
    it ain't fried blood but it'll do.

  19. #44
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    Well it looks as if this experiment has failed miserably! The crust is a deep golden brown the loaf? Flat. Due most likely to my complete lack of patience. I've tossed it back in the oven a for a bit But I can tell, the bread will be too dense, not risen enough. Should have waited longer at each step. The sponge could have waited until tomorrow then rising the actual dough would have gone much faster. The loaf would have had a better shape.

    Don't worry, after the thing has cooked another 10 or 15 I'll give you guys a shot a truly sad lookin' loaf...

    While I was going through this I knew I should be patient, wait for peak activity but I was just too damned in a rush to taste the thing. THe aroma in the house is wonderful. Another thing, use less "bread" flour and more "all purpose" flour. Before When baking this bread I used a combination of unbleached and white all purpose flours or rye and all purpose flour. I intended to use more regular flour but ran out.

    Cool temperatures
    impatience
    improper flour mixture
    I was able to combine these things into a perfect piece of shit. Smells good though, and I am encouraged. Stick around while I give it anotehr go...
    Last edited by friscofrankie; 03-02-2007 at 01:03 AM.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon View Post
    it's a truly informative thread frankie but it seems like the most god awful amount of work for a loaf of bread.

    can't you just dip a normal off the shelf loaf into something tangy or fill it with a good blue cheese?

    I think just getting a soi dog to piss on it would do the trick.

  21. #46
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    Looking at the loaf I'd also have blame baking temperature as well.
    But Just look at this beautiful crust!

    inside is damn near as dense as fudge. the crust is crunchy/chewy combination that sets good sourdough apart from teh rest. It is tasty But next time I'm gonna wait a lot longer during the sponge and rise steps. This was trial. I found out there really are no shortcuts. If anyone else trys this teh starter is good, the methods are sound, but plan a day in advance with your sponge. Tomorrow I'm off to buy more flour.
    Anybody know where I can score some rye in Chiangmai?

  22. #47
    Sauerkraut stroller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by friscofrankie
    I was able to combine these things into a perfect piece of shit. Smells good though, and I am encouraged. Stick around while I give it anotehr go...
    That's the spirit!
    What about mixing some baking powder in, would that interfere with the yeast, or is considered cheating by purist bakers' standards ?

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by stroller
    considered cheating by purist bakers' standards
    precisely

    I knew i was rushing it. Not from ignorance did this happen but sheer, stupid impatience. I have baked a hunderd or two loaves of sourdough. This is the best crust I've ever baked. It's also the first time I tried the water spraying technique, Will be using from now on. The inside is still doughy it has a very nice structure just no bubbles. Lower heat, more time. Maybe the flour mixture can be altered not sure it was the main culprit. I was also late with the salt which is important in helping the dough retain the gas. Couple of days I'll do another. I'll only post the first real success after this...
    Last edited by friscofrankie; 03-02-2007 at 01:45 AM.

  24. #49
    Thailand Expat El Gibbon's Avatar
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    FF, have not done sourdough but have done quite a bit of bread(s).

    After punching down your loaf, I always let it raise to at least double the amount, in volume. ( Actually a lot of bread recipes tell you that on both raise cycles you should at least let the volume double) This may take some time depending on the activity of your yeast. To promote some activity you might add a pinch of sugar to the original dough mixture. A pinch won't affect the flavor of the final product.

    I have found a decent spot for the raising of dough, the back top side of most any refrigerator. The heat from the coils generally maintains a decent and consistent mild heat source. Also make sure the dough and the bowl it resides in are not in any draft at all.

    A great thread and am sure the final production will be well worth it.

    Patience is the bakers best friend!

    E. G.
    "If you can't stand the answer --
    Don't ask the question!"

  25. #50
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    Check out this link, just about like what FF says tho.

    How to Make San Francisco Sourdough Bread

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