Thread: Crown Land use, Sor Por Kor discussion

Originally Posted by jamescollister

I/we have about 100 rai, it's the land titles that count, crown land 25 rai per family, free land. You can own as much as you like, if it has other titles. Land titles and usage are confusing to say the least, but there's no limit if not crown lands.

You lost me Jim. What title does free land have? And what title does 'Crown Land' come under? I believe 'Crown Land' to be 'Sor Por Kor'

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Originally Posted by jamescollister

I/we have about 100 rai, it's the land titles that count, crown land 25 rai per family, free land. You can own as much as you like, if it has other titles. Land titles and usage are confusing to say the least, but there's no limit if not crown lands.

You lost me Jim. What title does free land have? And what title does 'Crown Land' come under? I believe 'Crown Land' to be 'Sor Por Kor'

That's right, Sor por gor crown land, free land given to people to farm, for free, but not owned by the farmer. Jim

And it's still traded; bought and sold...

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

And it's still traded; bought and sold...

Not here as much as before, village heads and above will not put there names on the sales papers.
Land office can't change the title, so you take your chances that the named possessor doesn't claim it back.
Better to get no title land [possession land] that can legally be sold and hope the charnote people come on day. Jim

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Sor por gor crown land

Bought and sold all the time between Thais. Seems history of ownership, (occupation by squatter) is not contested. I'm told that this land will eventually be surveyed and registered in the farmers name when and if such action ever occurs. They can opt to lay the groundwork for such a registered title at the land office, but it is time consuming I'm told, but possible.
A recent holding of 11 rai under this title just came up and was traded for 60,000baht per rai. Rice land. Owner was in debt had to liquidate.

100Talang wa is available next door but the owner wants to keep the house and land under the house about another 100 Talang wa in case his wife kicks him off her property. Fall back situation. Needless to say, I want the land,but I don't want the guy as that's why I want the land in the first place.

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

And it's still traded; bought and sold...

Yup! All the time, Thai to Thai.

BTW, corn pickers here are getting 200 baht per day and they're Thai not Burmese or Lao.

I pay the best in the area, 300 baht per day depending on the job, and most of the time I pay 500 baht per day for things only a donkey would do. Its just not right to cut someones wages when you know what a shit job it is to begin with. If it happens to be a job I would not consider doing, then the wage goes up accordingly. I always supply lunch and treats.

Originally Posted by jamescollister
Sor por gor crown land
Bought and sold all the time between Thais. Seems history of ownership, (occupation by squatter) is not contested. I'm told that this land will eventually be surveyed and registered in the farmers name when and if such action ever occurs. They can opt to lay the groundwork for such a registered title at the land office, but it is time consuming I'm told, but possible.

It's illegal, SPG land can not be sold or leased, no taxes or land transfer fees paid.
Some get away with it, but others lose, as happened near me. 10 year rule was applied along the 2248 road. Some lands were confiscated, others got charnotes, it's a gamble.
Our area was investigated about 3 years ago, boys from BKK came up, just too much public money going into private pockets, too many deals.
Unless the land goes through the land office, you have no real legal claim and take your chances.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

It's illegal, SPG land can not be sold or leased

Legally the title can only change hands once the original owner dies. It must then be transfered to a member of the deceaseds family. Anybody who buys Sor Por Kor land and builds an house on it, with the land papers in another persons name, is on a sticky wicket. If the person on the papers dies then there's nothing to stop the family claiming it back.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Originally Posted by jamescollister

It's illegal, SPG land can not be sold or leased

Legally the title can only change hands once the original owner dies. It must then be transfered to a member of the deceaseds family. Anybody who buys Sor Por Kor land and builds an house on it, with the land papers in another persons name, is on a sticky wicket. If the person on the papers dies then there's nothing to stop the family claiming it back.

Can't build a house on it, period, Teesaban can not grant planning permission on SPK land. Planning permission can not be back dated, only thing you can legally build is a workers hut.
Know people who have and they take a gamble, upset the wrong person, or get in the way of other development and a bulldozer will arrive.
If it's not legal, it can go, be confiscated anytime, happens a lot.
My nearest town, Tesco's arrived, road widened, one side power company controlled land, shop houses, homes, noddle bars, all gone, not legal. Jim

Nobody taking anybodies land around here. I must live in a very exclusive location where everyone gets along and nobody seems to look at screwing each other. Lots of locals exchange land all the time. common knowledge in the entire community as to who owns what and who sold what to whom. this includes the Government officials as well the king pins.

If you're a prick here they ban you from the community. Literally! You move out lock stock and barrel.

One way to trade SPK land at the land office and have the name changed is by saying the seller is the uncle/aunt of the buyer, he/she being present at the land office and confirming this. This will only happen on SPK land that has checked with bounderies and sat long/lat confirmation. Worked for my missus. She pays an annual land tax on all her land, all of which is SPK, and apparently, this will also help in eventually upgrading paperwork. Allegedly.

^Yup, fully concur thaiguzzi.

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

One way to trade SPK land at the land office and have the name changed is by saying the seller is the uncle/aunt of the buyer, he/she being present at the land office and confirming this. This will only happen on SPK land that has checked with bounderies and sat long/lat confirmation. Worked for my missus. She pays an annual land tax on all her land, all of which is SPK, and apparently, this will also help in eventually upgrading paperwork. Allegedly.

Don't know about that one, ask your wife, do they change the name on the title, or put a rider on the back stating the land goes to this relative upon death of owner.

Same goes for chanote title less than 10 years old, no name change allowed, you can not borrow against it, as banks can not put a lean on it. You can sell it by informing the land office on a special form, no tax or transfer fees paid. At the 10 year mark, new owner can have the title changed and pay the taxes.

As posted, when the charnote guys did the 2248 road, any dispute over who owns what and no new title was issued, people were told to take their claim to the land tribunal for a judgement.

It's not the locals you need to worry about, but the guys on computers in BKK, from what I heard the 10 year rule seemed to apply mostly.

Will see what happens when they get out my way, whole villages could be in the national park. Jim

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

One way to trade SPK land at the land office and have the name changed is by saying the seller is the uncle/aunt of the buyer

I don't see this also. Name change can only legally be changed on the death of the person named on the title. So therefore I'd expect a death certification having to be shown at the time.

With regards to disputes over name changes on SPK. What usually happens is that the named person sells the land but fails to tell the rest of the family. As said, name can't be changed until death. When said person dies the family chase up their entitlement only to find that the land was sold. In law the family still own it even though another person has bought it some years previous. Then you've got a court case where the deceased's family will win, unless a compromise can be achieved.

This is why farangs are recommended to get their wifes to buy 'Chanote' land to build their house on.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Name change can only legally be changed on the death of the person named on the title.

I'm not trying to needle you and Jim, but this is Thailand... We all know the rules, but we also know the rules mean "Jack," in Thailand.

Of course from a Ferangs perspective being inundated with laws as to his rights in Thailand as well elsewhere, me thinks you guys need to do a reassessment of rules that apply to you and the rules that apply to Thais.

Its not the same and you know it.

New SPK paperwork in my wife's name, title transferred from the seller's (alleged "uncle") to hers, at the main land office in Udon city. I was present also, and my wife has my surname too.

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it. Fact.

Originally Posted by ltnt

I'm not trying to needle you and Jim, but this is Thailand... We all know the rules, but we also know the rules mean "Jack," in Thailand. Of course from a Ferangs perspective being inundated with laws as to his rights in Thailand as well elsewhere, me thinks you guys need to do a reassessment of rules that apply to you and the rules that apply to Thais. Its not the same and you know it.

Neither me or Jim are saying that what is going on isn't going on. What we're saying is that what is going on is illegal and may come back to bite you. Just be careful. End of. Fcuk knows why you and Thaiguzzi are getting your nickers in a twist?

Pragmatic ,Jan and I are as happy as pigs in shit (as no doubt you are with your good lady) ,but I would not bet my life savings that it will still be the same in two years time ,especially as you rightly say an illegal Thai Thai deal which could come back to bite you .

Piwanoi all I can say is that land disputes are one of the biggest causes of backlogs in Thai courts. They take years to resolve. By the time one has finished paying for the lawyer etc everyone is a loser. Do it legally and life is so much smoother.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Piwanoi all I can say is that land disputes are one of the biggest causes of backlogs in Thai courts. They take years to resolve. By the time one has finished paying for the lawyer etc everyone is a loser. Do it legally and life is so much smoother.

I could not agree any more ,there's nothing certain in life, and even more so here in Thailand where the odds are often stacked against the Non Thai and even more so when the deal is at best "shady"

No hard and sure outcomes when it comes on this type of title, story I posted years ago.
We are luckily only have 15 rai of crown land, MIL inherited it from her father about 30 years ago. She had 2 sisters and one brother, sisters lived in BKK and brother was on the run, after stealing water buffalo.

20 years later we got married, MIL, who didn't use the land, gave to my wife, to plant rubber.

Roll clock forward 7 odd years, nice lines of rubber, wife's Uncle seeing a fast profit goes to the land office and makes claim on it, saying he planted the trees. He wanted the title changed into his name as he was the son and should have inherited the land in the first place.

We had to go with the village head to confirm that he had not planted or worked the land ever.
Land office wanted nothing to do with it, our 2 options, make a deal or go to court.
Village sided with us, uncle lost face big time, people turned their back on him, I mean they turned away when he came to the village.

Long story, short, uncle had to stand up in front of the village elders, saying he made no claim on the trees, but the land should go to his son when the trees were gone.
Face thing, if/when the charnote people come, they may rule disputed ownership, no title issued, or issue charnote to my wife on the 10 year rule.

Charnote surveyors maybe 10 years away, so wife will have 20 years of use up.

We had another 25 rai, the grand father gave to the wife, didn't use it, army came took the land for a forest patrol base.

As Mike says, people have been buying and selling crown land since the titles were first issued, but it's cheap compared to other titles, because it's not ownership, just a right to use. Jim

Unfortunately Itnt and Thaiguzzi believe that cuz they have papers they have land. They have a right to farm it, full stop. To own it it needs to be 'Chanote'. As Jim indicated, in having 'Crown Land' it carries no security and can be taken back by the 'Crown' as and when they choose. That's my understanding.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

We had another 25 rai, the grand father gave to the wife, didn't use it, army came took the land for a forest patrol base.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Unfortunately Itnt and Thaiguzzi believe that cuz they have papers they have land. They have a right to farm it, full stop. To own it it needs to be 'Chanote'. As Jim indicated, in having 'Crown Land' it carries no security and can be taken back by the 'Crown' as and when they choose. That's my understanding.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

We had another 25 rai, the grand father gave to the wife, didn't use it, army came took the land for a forest patrol base.

Sorry to correct you Pragmatic "they have land"? the way I see it, and of course I could be way off the mark here but legally whatever the circumstances the "precious " land always belongs to a Thai ,whether its your wife or whatever ,so if the partnership goes tits up, it could be somewhat embarrassing and expensive for "the alien" involved

No Piwanoi, irrespective of the farang not able to own the land he has probably paid for it so the loss is his.

Originally Posted by piwanoi

Sorry to correct you Pragmatic "they have land"? the way I see it

Yes they have the land but it's 'Crown Land' (Sor Por Kor) and remains so until it becomes 'Chanote', the all singing and dancing title. 'Crown' land's purpose is to be farmed and only a wooden structure (house) is permissable to be built on it. If the land isn't used for it's intended purpose (farming) then the 'Crown' can take it back. ie you buy a Rai of SPK land and only build an house on it instead of farming it it can be taken back by the 'Crown'. So even a Thai never owns land theoretically until it becomes 'Chanote'. That is why they can't wait for the title to be changed. That's my understanding.

Originally Posted by piwanoi

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Unfortunately Itnt and Thaiguzzi believe that cuz they have papers they have land. They have a right to farm it, full stop. To own it it needs to be 'Chanote'. As Jim indicated, in having 'Crown Land' it carries no security and can be taken back by the 'Crown' as and when they choose. That's my understanding.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

We had another 25 rai, the grand father gave to the wife, didn't use it, army came took the land for a forest patrol base.

Sorry to correct you Pragmatic "they have land"? the way I see it, and of course I could be way off the mark here but legally whatever the circumstances the "precious " land always belongs to a Thai ,whether its your wife or whatever ,so if the partnership goes tits up, it could be somewhat embarrassing and expensive for "the alien" involved

What would the outcome be in the west, wife, kids, house and partnership goes bad, you would get a better deal in Thailand.

Think mike has been here long enough to be getting close to the 10 year rule, if so and no dispute over the land, he's on a winner, got cheap land which gets charnote later.
It's probably a good gamble long term, but you may lose some, win some, I won big time on no title land. Could lose on the crown land, could win, but all in all we're up.

Today things are changing, since 2004 the Thai government, with IMF and Ausaid have been setting up a national land register data base. What's on that is more important than local paper. The further out you are the less likely you are on it, but once land is in the data base the laws apply.
Jim