The Thailand expat forum for Travel, Lifestyle and Fun.

dirtydog

^Funny you should say that, Somchai works for Home Pro in Pattaya, should I warn Home Pro?

DrAndy

probably true DD, unless it is a drop in pressure (unlikely!) when a tap is opened

dirtydog

That would be an extremely dangerous way for a water heater to work in a country where mains pressure can vary from zilch to trickle at any moment

DrAndy

yep, all the more fun

so flow it is

mikehunt

Almost all single point instantaneous water heaters use a pressure switch (not a flow switch), which is by far, a very good idea.

Take a look at the specs of a heater made by the manufacturer of my current heater. It looks different but it's the same animal. I copied this info directly from the site so grammatical errors do not belong to me. My comments are in yellow.
Link: Water Heater FRESH 4.5



1. Heater Properties.
The heater is made of a combinations of Nylon66 and Fiber, rust resistant, can withstand high temperature (< 200 C) and pressure (< 6 bar), and a good insulator.

2. Rated Power.
FRESH 4.5 rated power = 4500 Watts.

3. Safety System.
ELCB - prevents electric shock. It is installed within the machine and can cut the electricity at 0.1 second at both lines (line and natural) after the electricity starts leaking. This has been tested with EMC magnetic under UL (IEC Standard). This way you can be sure of your safety while machine is operating.

I don't know which IEC Standard this company is referring to but it is a requirement that any earth leakage device is able to operate within 20 milliseconds (0.02 seconds).

4. Points of Use.
For single of use.

5. Temperature Control.
The temperature is adjusted by electronic system.

6. Shower.1 function shower head to suit your need and relaxation during shower.

7. Installation.
Installed by MAZUMA experienced staffs.

8. Guarantee.
Heater - 2 year warrantee. Unit - 1 year warrantee.

9. Other Properties.
8 level of safety system;
1. Pressure Valve with Micro Switch - tool for controlloing and testing water pressure at water inlet. It sends electrical signal to the heater via micro switrch. The system will be cut off automatically once no water is coming in.
2. Linear Control and Adjustment; control temperature by using the button to adjust the electricity given to heater.
3. The heater is made of a combinations of Nylon66 and Fiber, rust resistant, can withstand high temperature (< 200 C) and pressure (< 6 bar), and a good insulator.
4. Thermostat is the device which prevents the temperature from exceeding 57C. It operates by controlling the point where electric current is being distributed to the heater. Thus you can be assure of no scalding.
5. ELCB - prevents electric shock. It is installed within the machine and can cut the electricity at 0.1 second after the electricity starts leaking, even if the current is < 15 milliamps.

The minimum requirement is 30 milliamps for domestic purposes. This 15 mA rating is useless without a fast trip time (i.e. less than 20mS).

6. Wires are covered with PVC which can withstand temperature as high as 105 C, withstand electrical current as high as 600 V without getting burnt.
7. Inlet and outlet pipe - made of a combinations of Nylon66 and Fiber, rust resistant, can withstand high temperature (< 200 C) and pressure (< 6 bar). It is a good insulator so you can be 100% sure of no electrical leakage. It also has filter at inlet pipe to filter out dirt from water before running into the machine.
8. The lid is made of grade ABS plastic which is very durable, high temperature resistant (up to 120C) and fire resistant. These properties make the lid to be a good insulator when there is electricity leakage.

__________________
Oh for fucks sake! Get a life & stop trying to fuck mine up!

DrAndy

DD already said that

then we were talking about multipoints, which are flow switched

Mr R Sole

Somtamslap called me last night to inform me that he had just been shocked in his shower!!!!! the new proud father could've been wiped out!!!!

I had also watched not more than 10 or so mins before my extension lead with bank of plugs in my lounge started to smoke and the wires melt before my eyes whilst my 7mth old was playing not 3mtrs from the damn thing.....

Thailand is a very unfunny joke when it comes to electrics.....incompetant fools..they really are....and makers of crap I might add...the extension socket/bank was made here....Made in China I always expect to be faulty....but this is beyond a joke!!!

That could've been to TD'ers lost in the space of 30mins!!!!!

LOShit'e

DrAndy

no doubt you checked the max capacity for the extension before plugging in your bank of plugs

they do sell cheap rubbish, but you can choose to pay a little more

granite

I would like to answer watterinja’s question, “I wonder if Thailand covers the installation & operation of these devices in some sort of building code?”, as well as address some of the basics of wiring an instantaneous water heater.

There are two Thai regulations that I am familiar with that cover instantaneous water heaters. The first, Thai Industrial Standard (TIS) 1693-2547, Industrial Standard for Electric Instantaneous Water Heaters: Safety Requirements, addresses the construction and characteristics of the appliance, but generally not the electrical installation requirements. The electrical installation requirements are governed by Engineering Institute of Thailand (EIT) Standard 2001-51, Standard for Electrical Wire Installation for Thailand 2545 (with Revision 1 2551). This is the Thai electrical code and it governs, among other things, all electrical wiring in the home. The points below are based on these two regulations.


Grounding Whether an appliance must be grounded (earthed) depends on its class, not on the type of appliance. Class 1 appliances must be grounded, whereas class 2 (double-insulated) appliances do not need to be. I know that many electric instantaneous water heaters are class 1 and therefore must be grounded; I do not know whether all instantaneous water heaters are class 1. Regardless, it is easy to determine the appliance class once the water heater is on hand. A class 1 appliance will have a grounding terminal to connect the grounding wire. A class 2 appliance will not have a grounding terminal, and it will be clearly marked with either the words “class 2”, “double-insulated”, or with the double-insulation symbol (a square within a square—look on a cell phone charger or battery charger to see an example of these markings). If you ever see a water heater that has no grounding terminal and is not marked as being a class 2 appliance, throw it away.

What is the proper way to ground a class 1 water heater? There are many elements required to properly ground any appliance. To start, the grounding wire (called the equipment grounding conductor in the regulation, but I’ll keep calling it the grounding wire here) must be connected to the grounding terminal on the water heater. The grounding wire must run back to the consumer unit (the box housing the circuit breaker for the water heater) along with the other two wires from the water heater (the phase and neutral wires). Inside the consumer unit, the grounding wire must be connected to the ground busbar.

What size must the grounding wire be? Depends on the ampere rating of the circuit breaker for the water heater. If the circuit breaker is 16 amperes, the grounding wire must be 1.5 mm2 or larger. For a 20-ampere circuit breaker, 2.5 mm2 or larger. For 25 and 32-ampere circuit breakers, 4 mm2 or larger. (If the wire type is VAF-GRD, which is a flat multi-core cable with a white sheath, then you don’t get to choose the grounding wire size independently of the phase and neutral wire sizes. For this wire type, you size the phase and neutral wires first and accept the size of the grounding wire in that cable.)

Now we have the water heater grounding wire properly connected to the ground busbar in the consumer unit. But this does not necessarily properly ground the water heater. For the water heater to be properly grounded (and in fact for anything in the house to be properly grounded), the consumer unit itself must be properly grounded. So how must the consumer unit be grounded? I will give a short overview below for a single-phase consumer unit. Don’t try to wire according to this description—it’s not detailed enough and there are exceptions (for example if the consumer unit housing the water heater circuit breaker is a subpanel, then proper grounding is more complicated than described below). With the following information, I’m only trying to convey that simply connecting an appliance grounding wire to something (a ground busbar, a ground rod) does not properly ground the appliance.

To ground the consumer unit, the ground busbar must be connected to a ground rod (other grounding electrodes are allowed by regulation, but they’re almost never used in domestic installations). Regulation requires that the ground rod be at least 2.4 meters long, 5/8-inches in diameter (which is about 15 mm), and made of solid copper or copper-clad steel (electroplated, not a copper sheath pressed onto a steel rod). The size of the wire that connects the ground rod to the ground busbar in the consumer unit depends on the size of the service conductors (the mains), but for almost all domestic installations it must be not smaller than 10 mm2.

The last element for a properly-grounded appliance is this: the neutral service conductor (the neutral wire running from the meter to the consumer unit) must be grounded at the consumer unit. How? The neutral service conductor must connect to the ground busbar in the consumer unit. Then, a short wire the same size as the neutral service conductor must be run from the ground busbar to the neutral terminal of the main breaker. This is called the main bonding jumper in Thai- and USA-regulation parlance, and you can look it up on the internet to read more about its importance in grounding.

All of the above are necessary, and required by regulation, for proper grounding. In Thailand, most installations do not have an adequate ground rod and the neutral service conductor is not usually grounded at the consumer unit. These two failings render the grounding system for the house ineffective and the electrical system can be significantly more dangerous as a result. Note that grounding a water heater (or any appliance) by connecting it to its own ground rod, as is sometimes seen in Thailand, is dangerous and prohibited by regulation. All grounding wires for appliances, luminaires, and receptacle outlets must run back to the consumer unit and connect to the ground busbar.

Earth Leakage Breaker Instantaneous water heaters have a built-in earth leakage breaker (ELB), also referred to on some units as an earth leakage circuit breaker (ELCB) or residual current device (RCD). I’ll use the term RCD because that’s the term used in the Thai electrical code. The built-in RCD was required by the 2545 version of the electrical code. Revision 1 to the code, which is now in force, has a more a stringent requirement. It is no longer enough to have an RCD built into the water heater—now, the entire branch circuit must be protected by an RCD. This requirement pertains to whirlpool tubs also, incidentally. There are a few ways to do this. First, the entire consumer unit can be protected by an RCD either with an external RCD, an RCD built into the consumer unit, or an RCD main breaker. Second, an RCD circuit breaker can be installed for the water heater branch circuit. Third, an RCD can be installed in the water heater branch circuit wires outside the consumer unit.

By regulation, the RCD must have a trip current not greater than 30 milliamperes (mA). All RCDs marketed for domestic use in Thailand meet this requirement. However, better to use an RCD with a lower trip current if one is available. RCDs with lower trip currents are available from some manufacturers. Square D markets RCD circuit breakers with a 10 mA trip current, and Safe-T-Cut has RCD-protected consumer units with trip currents adjustable down to 5 mA, for example.

Wire Size One widespread problem with wiring in Thailand is undersize wires. What size wires (the phase and neutral wires—the grounding wire was covered above) are required by regulation for a water heater? The required wire size depends on the ampere rating of the circuit breaker for the water heater. It also depends on the type of wire used and the wiring method, which complicates things. I will give the required wire sizes for one common wire type and wiring method—wire type VAF-GRD run on the surface of the wall or embedded in the wall plaster. For a circuit breaker of 20 amperes or less, the wire must be 2.5 mm2 or larger. For a 25-ampere circuit breaker, 4 mm2 or larger. And for a 32-ampere circuit breaker, 6 mm2 or larger.

Safety Breaker It is customary in Thailand to install a switch for the water heater outside the bathroom. The switch is usually a so-called safety breaker. This switch is not required by regulation.

Recommendations for Fixing an Installation In a house with significant wiring deficiencies, what can be done to make instantaneous water heaters more safe? The easiest way to reduce the electrical shock hazard from a water heater is to install an RCD to protect the water heater branch circuit. If there is currently a safety breaker installed outside the bathroom for the water heater, it will be easiest and cheapest just to swap it out for an RCD safety breaker. Haco markets RCD safety breakers under the name Earth Leakage Breakers. Use a 16-ampere circuit breaker for a 3500-watt water heater, a 25-ampere breaker for a 4500-watt heater, and a 32-ampere breaker for a 6000-watt heater. Alternatively, if you have a Square D consumer unit, you can replace the circuit breaker for the water heater with a Square D RCD circuit breaker with a 10 mA trip current. Use the circuit breaker ampere ratings given above for the different sizes of water heaters, except that for a 4500-watt heater you may use a 20-ampere breaker (as of last year, Square D did not market a 25-ampere RCD circuit breaker). Note that replacing a circuit breaker involves opening the consumer unit and working close to live wires. The service conductors (mains) remain live even when the main breaker is switched off. Don’t attempt to replace a circuit breaker unless you understand the hazards and how to avoid them, as well as having the equipment you need to be safe. And the final alternative for providing RCD protection for the water heater branch circuit is to install an RCD main breaker (they all have 30 mA trip currents). This is the most expensive option and the most trouble, as it entails working with live wires. Replacing the main breaker should only be done by an electrician.

Test all RCDs monthly. RCDs can go bad or be damaged by electrical surges from, for example, nearby lightning strikes.

Repairing the grounding system can be difficult or almost impossible (for one who lives in an apartment building, for example). It requires some expertise to assess the current state of the grounding system and to effect any repairs. But also doing these things can be dangerous because it requires opening and working within the consumer unit. It’s frankly beyond the scope of this post. Anyone who is serious about installing a proper grounding system probably needs to hire an electrician or engineer who knows what they’re doing to help. Not sure how to find a knowledgeable electrician or engineer in Thailand. And on that discouraging note, I’ll end this post.

wernerfreitag

I think nobody really cares in Thailand.
Good description for new and old installations.

mikehunt

The worst thing about Thailand is that it has a horrible mixture of the European system & the American system. Essentially, Thailand uses the European system of electricity. Unfortunately, it also uses the awful American colour code, which exists in only a few countries.

Last but not least, you now have learnt that people on Teakdoor don't give 2 hoots about electrical. Perhaps that's why the membership is not increasing? Everybody is getting electrocuted.

globin

After doing many renovations and rewires here, I would like to add a warning to anyone tinkering with an existing installation.

DO NOT assume that the water heater breaker is connected to the mains after the main switch. Quite often wire strippers here will connect the live side of the breaker directly to the mains wiring coming into the house to save a bit of copper. This means the next protective device between you and electrocution is the pole fuse and they are much less sensitive than even the most basic circuit breaker.

__________________
~Glennerd~

Humbert

The worst thing about Thailand is that it has a horrible mixture of the European system & the American system. Essentially, Thailand uses the European system of electricity. Unfortunately, it also uses the awful American colour code, which exists in only a few countries.

You obviously have a lot of expertise in this area. Why is the European colour system better?

Mr R Sole

Try telling that to tesco's but mostly my local shop...they only generally have one type...they also state that they have a circuit breaker on it...so it wasn't that cheap...but that didn't seem to work..

I have recently complained to the owner of the house and she stated that the prevoius owners had Air-'con'-- (ain't that the truth...paying for air!!! cold or not..no way for me...some like it hot)-- and when it was removed the electrics went up the spout..(not her words of course)-- I asked the neighbours..they said there electric's were just the same!!! Lying little bitch...

She also stated that the house and street were quiet..well I'm sure we've all heard that one before????

Sounds like Battersea dogs home...when the bitches are in season....needless to say I'm looking for another house to stay in!!!

I'm sure that place will be "nee up" as well...

dirtydog

Thats an easy one to answer, in America they use black and white cables, both black and white are not colours, in Europe we use brown, blue and green with yellow bits? These are colours

lom

They are races aren't they?
And the white has all the power while the black has zero.

Humbert

Make sure your electrician isn't colour blind.

WhiteLotusLane

> They are races aren't they?
> And the white has all the power while the black has zero.

See, that's counter-intuitive. In Europe, my electrical installations teacher explained it to me why the live one is brown. He started by asking if anyone knew why Negroes have brown skin... well that's because they touched the live wire, which is therefore colored brown.

That raised a few eyebrows, but nobody in that class ever forgot, especially not the black guys in that class.

DrAndy

were they waiting outside later?

dirtydog

Its probably a good learning technique, bit like blue to the left and brown to the right on plugs.