Illegal water pump?

**Spin** · 04-02-2009, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

the Bum gun is god damn near a magnum now and will lift you off the shitter. Gets off all the new and some of the old.

**lom** · 04-02-2009, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

Gets off some of the new and all of the old.

Corrected that one for you.

**Smithson** · 04-02-2009, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by benbaaa

Originally Posted by Smithson

Just a guess, maybe by adding a pump your drawing so much water from the system that it's actually reducing the pressure and supply for others.

So two showers a day and two washing machine loads a week is enough to bring the system to a halt?

Don't get me wrong, I was just guessing. If your neigbours aren't having problems with pressure maybe they all have pumps, which is creating the problem for you.

We lived at the end of the soi and had problems with water on a Sunday afternoon, I figured it was because we were at the end of the main and it was a busy time.

The pump has been put in an obvious position, now you have to get him back to move it. I'm trying if he's clever or stupid? All our plumbing is done in 1/2" pipe, it's cheaper but the saving is minimal and the water pressure at the end of our block is shite.

watterinja · 04-02-2009, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Gerbil

Meter ----> Pump ----> Tank ----> House = Illegal
Meter ----> Tank ----> Pump ----> House = Legal

The reasoning is to ensure that when the mains pressure is low, that other people do get at least some water from it.

Meter ----> Reservoir-Tank ----> Pump ----> Main-tank ----> House

Reservoir basically decouples your home system from the mains supply. It can be a holding tank with a valve shutoff, vented to atmosphere.

**Loy Toy** · 04-02-2009, 02:57 PM

If the water pump is positioned on your land I can't really see a problem with it and actually the "nam prapar" water department people done exactly the same on our land when we were having problems.

In our situation we were at the very end of the town water supply so it may not be considered to affect other users.

Put a few pot plants around it, keep quite and I guess you will find out if it is acceptable or not the next time the council come to read the metre.

Good luck and I feel for you because adequate water supply into the house is the most important connection.

**lom** · 04-02-2009, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

If the water pump is positioned on your land I can't really see a problem with it

Well, if you have read this thread and the explanation of what it causes but still can't see the problem then you must be daft.

**Loy Toy** · 04-02-2009, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by lom

Well, if you have read this thread and the explanation of what it causes but still can't see the problem then you must be daft.

Well if you read my response in full you may have noticed that the official water department (which sets down the rules here) done exactly what the OP'S plumber did!

Thats why I considered it worthwhile enough to post Lom!

**dirtydog** · 04-02-2009, 03:39 PM

It is illegal to pump straight from the mains feed, but, everybody does it.

**lom** · 04-02-2009, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by dirtydog

It is illegal to pump straight from the mains feed, but, everybody does it.

Exactly, thanks.

In one end of the pipe there is the pump to keep water flowing, it has a capacity of X liter per minute.
Along the line are houndreds, maybe thousands, of consumer pumps and at any time of the day a whole bunch of them are working thereby sucking Y liter per minute.

Now, Y is much bigger than X and you can only guess what happens with the pump X and the piping that it feeds.
Sucking more than goes in creates under-pressure (vacuum) and that creates exactly the same problem with the piping as over-pressure does.

There is an avalanche effect in all this because the more pumps you introduce on the line the more pumps you have to put in.

Which Benners has realised now..

**blackgang** · 04-02-2009, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by watterinja

Meter ----> Reservoir-Tank ----> Pump ----> Main-tank ----> House

I don't understand this either.
Why would I need all those tanks?
I have 700 liters in reserve now and the pump is 1/2 meter away from that tank which is filled by a pipe from the meter to a float valve that keeps it full when ever there is main pressure,
Now as the water leaves the pump it is under considerable pressure to my shitter, Shower, Kitchen and Yard watering taps. I don't need a pressure tank as the pump has a small surge bell so we have a steady flow when water is running and not a great difference in pressure from turn on to turn off.

**lom** · 04-02-2009, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Loy Toy

Well if you read my response in full you may have noticed that the official water department (which sets down the rules here) done exactly what the OP'S plumber did!

It is still a stupid way (typical Thai way) of solving a problem by creating a bigger problem for tomorrow.
Benbaas plumber told him not to show the pump so the legality is a no-brainer.

**Thetyim** · 04-02-2009, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

Why would I need all those tanks?

I think his idea is to have a reserve tank at ground level so that you still get a flow even with low pressure.
The pump is legal as it is not connected to the mains.
The main tank is raised and provides a supply even during a power out

**Norton** · 04-02-2009, 04:40 PM

I am confused and freely admit to being a dumb shit but the pump will only be able to pump the volume of water available at it's input. If not sufficient volume, the pump should have no effect.

**lom** · 04-02-2009, 04:52 PM

^ The pumps are sucking and they are sucking directly on the line.
It is very likely that they will cause a water flow through the line feed pump which is much higher than it is rated for, it will spin faster than it should.

As an analogy, you have a front wheel driven car and you push down the accelerator at the same time as you have your other foot firmly on the break pedal.

watterinja · 04-02-2009, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Thetyim

Originally Posted by blackgang

Why would I need all those tanks?

I think his idea is to have a reserve tank at ground level so that you still get a flow even with low pressure.
The pump is legal as it is not connected to the mains.
The main tank is raised and provides a supply even during a power out

Yes, that is what I meant. Thanks for that.

The reservoir provides a break between the supply network & your home system. It can also smooth out some fluctuations in the incoming feed.

**Sakeopete** · 04-02-2009, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by benbaaa

Originally Posted by Gerbil

The reasoning is to ensure that when the mains pressure is low, that other people do get at least some water from it.

Before we fitted the pump, when the mains pressure was low, we got virtually none. Now we get enough for normal household consumption, ie bills about 120B/ month.

(We've found out that some of our neighbours' bills are topping 1,000B a month, 'cos they do catering for weddings, etc, and have a lot of washing up to do every day).

I feel bad my water usage was 57000 L last month cost me 800 Baht. Lucky I have a 2000 L tank. In fairness though I have 4 kids plus am having cement work done. Wish my bill was only 120 baht.

Are you using city water for garden or grass etc? We will be putting in a well next month so the water will only be used for grass and trees once we plat them.

**blackgang** · 04-02-2009, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Thetyim

I think his idea is to have a reserve tank at ground level so that you still get a flow even with low pressure. The pump is legal as it is not connected to the mains.

Exactly as I have and exactly as said by Gerbil..

Originally Posted by watterinja

Originally Posted by Gerbil Meter ----> Pump ----> Tank ----> House = Illegal Meter ----> Tank ----> Pump ----> House = Legal The reasoning is to ensure that when the mains pressure is low, that other people do get at least some water from it.

Originally Posted by watterinja

Meter ----> Reservoir-Tank ----> Pump ----> Main-tank ----> House Reservoir basically decouples your home system from the mains supply. It can be a holding tank with a valve shutoff, vented to atmosphere.

Originally Posted by Thetyim

The main tank is raised and provides a supply even during a power out

Coorrect, but Waterjs House Water Reservoir can not be left connected with valve open when main system under pressure or it will overflow on the ground, and have to have a valve cutting it from incoming system or the water will draim back thru main piping system to mains, Plus the fact that it will have to be at least 4 meters above the valves it serves as water is less than 1/2 PSI at a foot of head.
Lots of valves to have that extra house reserve tank and the way to fill it if also using a pump for a pressure system.

watterinja · 04-02-2009, 07:21 PM

The reservoir tank has a simple cistern-type float valve, that admits water from the mains supply.

The tank itself needs to be open to atmosphere & can be of any height you select. It all depends on how much water you want to hold in the reservoir. The house pump sucks from the reservoir into the house, at whatever pressure you've designed the pump to deliver.

You could even run both systems in parallel, with the pump only kicking into action when the mains pressure falls below a certain acceptable level.

**blackgang** · 04-02-2009, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Norton

I am confused and freely admit to being a dumb shit but the pump will only be able to pump the volume of water available at it's input. If not sufficient volume, the pump should have no effect

In theory Norton you are right, but it don't work that way, a pump runner will cavitate if sucking to hard, you will never be able to draw 29" of vacuum, and it is a lot easier to push than pull, A pump will only lift water about 25 feet at sea level and lifting takes most if the power a pump uses and it can then push water 200 feet above sea level.
A 26 inch dredge can lift 20% solids from 45 feet under at 14" of vacuum with a full pipe and only push that load 1 km with 6000 HP, another dredge hooked on to the end of his pipeline [booster dredge] can pull 6" of vacuum on him and pump that load for 5 or 8 miles with his 5000 HP..
But on any pump, cavitation on the runner is strange and it happens when it is working to hard and any little air bubble will shut a pump down, so just because a pump is running does not mean that it is pulling max vacuum, that is one reason most pumps have a fer instance, 1 1/2" intake and a 1" discharge, so if running a pump under cavitation loads the wear rings go first, [on a dredge they are called door liners] then if they will still hold some, the cavitation will eat holes in the runner.

Originally Posted by lom

As an analogy, you have a front wheel driven car and you push down the accelerator at the same time as you have your other foot firmly on the break pedal.

Kids do that all the time, love to see them tires smoke, but we used to do it in the flathead Fords too, even have an extra brake pedal to lock the front wheels and goose the engine to get the guy next to you wired, and with the front wheels locked, dump the clutch and smoke the rear tires and he didn't notice you was still there, the light was still RED and he was going down the street with RED flashing lights of a cop car on his ass. 555

**Nabeel** · 04-02-2009, 09:26 PM

Where did you get the "legalities" info from.

My house has always had a pump as the pressure during the day is sh##e

**blackgang** · 04-02-2009, 10:46 PM

The Moo Ban I live in now was built for govt people, I rent from a soldier, and there are a lot of teachers in here, my wife knows lots of em, and some policemen and all others seem to be renters or some form of govt employees.
And every place you look is a tank, Glass, Plastic Stainless or cement tiles stacked up and cemented together and a pipe from the main meter to it and a pump from it into the water system of the house.
I can see no sense in hooking onto the pipe at the meter, but do understand putting a reservoir tank with float valve between the meter and the pump.

If you suck to hard all you will really accomplish is destroying your pump in short order. And if they do shut down the water system for awhile as they seem to do here damn near every evening , you will have no water no matter how hard you suck,, you could have the old Dredge New Jersey with her 10,000 HP steam turbine driven 42 inch pump hooked up and still have no water.

**HINO** · 05-02-2009, 08:10 AM

One tank and one pump. If the government water supply is so spotty and low just seems like a double or triple size tank is needed to maintain an adequate supply for your needs. No second pumps or second reservoir tanks.

**benbaaa** · 05-02-2009, 08:55 AM

Thanks everyone, DD pretty much nailed down what I thought was the case. Further discussions with the neighbours have revealed that the water company have recently reduced the pressure deliberately in the mains because the mains keep bursting. This is a much better solution than repairing the mains, obviously, even if it means their customers don't get any water.

And we're at the end of the soi, hence not enough pressure to keep our tank filled. I have temporarily parked our wheelbarrow next to the little pump, so it can't be seen from the road. May go shopping for some nice big pot plants next week for a more permanent solution.

**lom** · 05-02-2009, 10:06 AM

You're a criminal benbaaa, it won't take long before they come and knock your door

**BillH52** · 05-02-2009, 10:34 AM

In the USA, they have fiberglass rock look-alikes available for water pumps, meters or watering control systems. Wonder if you could find a fake rock in Thailand.

Near Lahansai, the water pressure issue is much simpler; but, once all the houses in all the villages get water lines . . . . .

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