Thread: I need water storage and pressurisation - any chance of a Dummies guide?

JXP, I would question your assumption that a SS tank will warm the water more than a plastic tank.
I don't believe that is true.
One house I lived in the water was too hot to shower with in the early afternoon.
That house didn't have a tank it was fed straight from the mains.
The supply pipe ran underground and the concrete above it was in the sun all morning and heated the water. It was really hot, almost enough to scold the unready.

Originally Posted by dirtydog

They cost about 250baht, most pumps nowadays have an auto turn off when they get hot, ie they are pumping air and not water, ITC is a great brand, seem to last forever, after about 6 years just need to replace the resevoir and they sell stainless steel ones.

Excellent, thanks and noted.


JxP

Originally Posted by JuniorExPat

The general wisdom seems to be that selling a house right now is probably not the best bet so I'm steeling myself for the fun and games of improving and extending.

Stage one is in hand - roof vent to be installed tomorrow to reduce the feeling of living in an oven during the hot season! Okay, so at B3,000 supplied and installed it's not a major piece of development work but it is a step in the right direction. Further improvements to be made in ventilation and insulation at a later date.

Stage two is going to be to sort the water out. On the assumption that I am clueless and I must be because having spent quite some time reading through discussions on the topic I still have very little idea about where to start!

Our water supply is public water, not Chiang Mai city water but the local village source, and it comes out of the tap at great pressure . . . . during the middle of the day and the middle of the night when nobody else nearby is at home. In the morning and evening when a good supply is needed, the often resulting dribble is frustrating. The water main comes from the soi up the driveway via five outside taps and then supplies two bathrooms, both with electric showers, and a kitchen.

So I'm trying to come up with an idea of my options and the costs involved.

The options seem to be:

- Storage tank on a tower. (Does the water get hot up there (cold showers are welcome in the hot season)? Where is a pump necessary? To supply the tank? After the tank, to supply the house? How noisy is a pump if someone gets up in the night for a pee? Gravity feed to the house, what height is required for suitable pressure?)

- Ground level storage tank. (I guess no pump would be required to fill the tank but one would be needed to give a decent pressure to the house?)

- Drill a well or borehole. (There is quite a bit of appeal in this option - independence, self-sufficiency and all that but how can I be sure that there's water down there at a sensible depth and will my Black & Decker do the job?)


Any words of warning, wisdom or budget nightmares to share from the TeakDoor font of knowledge?


JxP

ivor biggun and i set up a great system in his house. it was cheap and works extremely well. he has a water storage tank in his roofspace and we used the municipal supply (although you could just as easily pump from a well) in conjunction with a small automatic pump. municipal shit pressure slowly fills the tank, then we pressurise the water to the faucets. when tap is open, the pressure drops and the pump switches on. you have about 1500 litres of water stored -more than enough to supply the house, and the tank just fills up at its leisure from the "nam pappa", which is shut off when full using a float valve.
the tank is not pressurised, just the water to the faucets
hope this helps

Originally Posted by JuniorExPat

Originally Posted by dirtydog

Originally Posted by JuniorExPat

Whilst we're in an eco-friendly frame of mind, I'm surprised that nobody seems to like the idea of saving electricity by using gravity from a water tower - what's the thinking there?

Will you have enough mains pressure to get it up there?
You need a 2 meter drop to get enough pressure to power up a shower heater.

Originally Posted by blackgang

You can do that if you want to, You would have to build a concrete or steel framework at least 15 feet higher than your shower/toilet to have any water at all and then put your say 1000 liter plastic or stainless tank on top of that structure, with the float valve installed, run your pipe from the water source up to the top of that tank and a pipe from the bottom of the tank to your water pipes going inside and thats all there is to it, but I would also add a pump to the system to where your pipe comes inside and the pressure would be a lot better as you only have a head pressure of about 1 1/2 pounds per foot of elevation.

If I'm going to have to pump it up to the tank and then pump it again into the house to get a decent pressure it doesn't really seem worthwhile.

I think I was hoping that the tank would fill from the mains when the pressure is good during the daytime and that I could get the tank high enough to maintain a decent gravity fed pressure. Is there a formula for working out required pressure and what height and volume of water is needed to achieve it?


JxP

Head and Pressure
Head and pressure are related in a very simple and direct
manner. Since water has a known height, we know that a 231
feet tall, one-inch round pipe holds 100 pounds of water.
At the bottom of this pipe we refer to the pressure as 100
pounds per square inch (psi).
For any diameter pipe 231 feet tall, the pressure will always be
100 psi at the bottom.
Head is usually expressed in feet of height or elevation,
of the column of water.
for every 2.31 feet in elevation equals 1 psi.
Head and pressure calculations for non-flowing
water depends on the elevation of the water and not on
the volume of water nor the size and length of piping

Hope this helps!.

However this is Thailand so you will have to convert feet to meters.

Originally Posted by everglaze

one-inch round pipe holds 100 pounds of water.
At the bottom of this pipe we refer to the pressure as 100
pounds per square inch (psi).

Erm.....since when did a 1" round pipe have an area of 1 sq inch ?

Originally Posted by Thetyim

Originally Posted by everglaze

one-inch round pipe holds 100 pounds of water.
At the bottom of this pipe we refer to the pressure as 100
pounds per square inch (psi).

Erm.....since when did a 1" round pipe have an area of 1 sq inch ?

Since Grundfos published the
technical section in the groundwater catalog!.

Grundfos is not claiming that a 1" round pipe have an area of 1 sq inch. It's just the way it is written .

Originally Posted by JuniorExPat

If I'm going to have to pump it up to the tank and then pump it again into the house to get a decent pressure it doesn't really seem worthwhile.

The main pressure should fill the tank up in the air, and to figure head pressure is 1 pound of pressure every 2 feet of elevation. actually 0.433 PSI per foot.

Well, Nobody is perfect. 1.000000000000000000000

Why not use SI units instead? - 10 meters of water height equals 1 bar of pressure (or 1000 mbar).

But it don't make no diff what size [dia] the pipe is, what counts is how long it is 1" or 1' it is still 0.433 psi head pressure per foot.

^
True and they did say that but this sentence is wrong
"Since water has a known height, we know that a 231
feet tall, one-inch round pipe holds 100 pounds of water."

Originally Posted by Thetyim

^
True and they did say that but this sentence is wrong
"Since water has a known height, we know that a 231
feet tall, one-inch round pipe holds 100 pounds of water."

Ok but they aren't specifying whether that is the OD or ID...So I guess they are assuming that you are thinking OD correct?
Anyway I understand what your saying..

Originally Posted by Driventowin

So I guess they are assuming that you are thinking ID correct?

It doesn't matter, 1" round can never equal 1" square

Originally Posted by Thetyim

Position the pump outside the house and cover it from rain and sun. Mount it on some rubber and you won't even notice the noise.

Junior, I'll take some pics of my stainless tank and my pumps outside tomorrow morning, just so you can have a look (we have one pump for the domestic water and another one to watering the garden who pump water from a well).
Works very well, I also get public water here in the moo baan in Sanpatong and we have 3 bathrooms (but only 2 people using it). The water never get too hot in the hot season but very fresh in the winter. The water pressure is very good and the pump is not brand new.
The pumps are not noisy at all as they are protected from the rain and sun under a concrete construction (open on one side). I even not notice when the pumps works. And they have an overheating protection (I think all actuel pumps now has this kind of protection).

Originally Posted by lom

Originally Posted by Driventowin

So I guess they are assuming that you are thinking ID correct?

It doesn't matter, 1" round can never equal 1" square

1" inch square??? Who said anything about 1" square??

They were talking about psi (pounds per square inch).

Originally Posted by JuniorExPat

Originally Posted by smeden

Originally Posted by Dalton

I would get a tank in pvc or stainless, put it on the ground-level install a level-switch so the city water shuts off when the tank is full. After the tank you install a small automatic pump 3/4" should be enough for your need.

hello i agree with dalton saw the price of the pump in another forum i think it is 2500 to 3000 bth if u have tank u can use your roof to colect water and save a bit on your waterbill plus saving on the cumunitys water reserves

Thanks to you too smeden.

I've got a note scribbled down somewhere that says "Grundfos water cooled 65psi pump B12,000", no idea where the info came from or why I wrote it down but it looks like it has not relevance to this discussion!

I like the idea of collecting rainwater for use, what about filtering it?

Whilst we're in an eco-friendly frame of mind, I'm surprised that nobody seems to like the idea of saving electricity by using gravity from a water tower - what's the thinking there?


JxP

hi my reply is i have lived in smaal villages whith wather u pay for per cubic meter but some time it is not clean water that comes out the tap whith a tank 2 or 3 cubic meter whith a swimmer valve as in your toialet u can do so u can colect water and only open the tab whith water u pay for when u are low on colectet water plus sometime the tab water in smal willages can be qite muddy when u have a tant all mud is in the tank u can buy a uv divice to put after uor pump into the house than u have no bacterias in your water in your house hope u can use my reply and god luck whith itkeep inviromental safe

Originally Posted by everglaze

Originally Posted by JuniorExPat

Originally Posted by dirtydog

Originally Posted by JuniorExPat

Whilst we're in an eco-friendly frame of mind, I'm surprised that nobody seems to like the idea of saving electricity by using gravity from a water tower - what's the thinking there?

Will you have enough mains pressure to get it up there?
You need a 2 meter drop to get enough pressure to power up a shower heater.

Originally Posted by blackgang

You can do that if you want to, You would have to build a concrete or steel framework at least 15 feet higher than your shower/toilet to have any water at all and then put your say 1000 liter plastic or stainless tank on top of that structure, with the float valve installed, run your pipe from the water source up to the top of that tank and a pipe from the bottom of the tank to your water pipes going inside and thats all there is to it, but I would also add a pump to the system to where your pipe comes inside and the pressure would be a lot better as you only have a head pressure of about 1 1/2 pounds per foot of elevation.

If I'm going to have to pump it up to the tank and then pump it again into the house to get a decent pressure it doesn't really seem worthwhile.

I think I was hoping that the tank would fill from the mains when the pressure is good during the daytime and that I could get the tank high enough to maintain a decent gravity fed pressure. Is there a formula for working out required pressure and what height and volume of water is needed to achieve it?


JxP

Head and Pressure
Head and pressure are related in a very simple and direct
manner. Since water has a known height, we know that a 231
feet tall, one-inch round pipe holds 100 pounds of water.
At the bottom of this pipe we refer to the pressure as 100
pounds per square inch (psi).
For any diameter pipe 231 feet tall, the pressure will always be
100 psi at the bottom.
Head is usually expressed in feet of height or elevation,
of the column of water.
for every 2.31 feet in elevation equals 1 psi.
Head and pressure calculations for non-flowing
water depends on the elevation of the water and not on
the volume of water nor the size and length of piping

Hope this helps!.

However this is Thailand so you will have to convert feet to meters.

if u want 1 bar presure on your water your water tower has to be 10 meter high it is simple tysich

This is all great stuff, I really didn't expect this much help or interest.

One thing that I can't work out from the advice so far is how to work out the required pressure, my definition is: strong enough to have a decent shower but not so strong that it busts the plumbing! How do I convert that to psi or bar?

Whilst following the psi debate I've become a bit worried that I'm going to need square pipes, I haven't seen any of those in Chiang Mai.



JxP

^
You have two figures to worry about pressure and flow rate to get a decent shower.
I wouldn't worry about it as any home pump in the 250w range will do the job

Dont worry about bursting the pipes, none of the automatic pumps can do that... I have tons of pumps here in the fish-farm the biggest gives 4.000 liters per minute.