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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crepitas
    Interesting..However the back pressure problem when using sprinklers is easily solved. Just install a 'T' at the outlet with a tap to return water to well...adjust as necessary?
    Shouldnt need any of that. The pumps being listed have pressure switches noted in the "Pressure Switch SW" section and lists their cut in & cut out pressure range. They cycle on their own and need no adjustment.

    OP's pump has an issue of some sort either a faulty switch or rusty parts, age, etc... Or he might have a centrifugal pump like Brisie that likely has no pressure switch at all, and that could surely cause a back pressure issue if installed incorrectly.

    And your "T" solution would only work venting overpressure in a fixed system. If you closed a valve before shutting off the pump, there by increasing pressure, you would pop a gasket again.

    not sure why I bother but :

    A closed T tap would not effect the the output pressure and would NOT blow any seals.

    FYI most all well pumps do NOT have pressure switches.

    Do you have a well and pump?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by crepitas
    not sure why I bother but :
    Honestly I have no Idea why Im bothering as well. Im talking total fact, and its totally clear by this statement that you know absolutely fuck all:

    Quote Originally Posted by crepitas
    FYI most all well pumps do NOT have pressure switches.
    Literally ALL constant pressure pumps have a pressure switch. Jet pumps have a switch. And a small pressure tank. The only ones I know of here in thailand that you would be able to find, without a pressure switch, are the centrifugal pumps Brisie had, and submersible pumps witch by the way, please, by all means run one of those bitches into a sprinkler without a switch. The pump that crackerjack listed? Has a switch, and a pressure tank. The chart that VocalNeal listed? All those pumps have a pressure switch, one model has a pressure tank and pressure switch, the other without the tank regulates pressure with the water running THROUGH the switch and ONLY a cutoff pressure.

    Heres a post I made SHOWING how to adjust the switch, with pics, that apparently does not exist along with a bit of discussion with VocalNeal:

    http://teakdoor.com/3426805-post16.html (Reduced power from Mitsubishi water pump)

    Quote Originally Posted by crepitas
    Do you have a well and pump?
    Yes, I do. Ive setup several here and had a few deep 4" and 6" steel cased wells drilled and I setup at my place in the states as well, with Franklin submersible pumps AND I work in Oil & Gas with this shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by crepitas
    A closed T tap would not effect the the output pressure and would NOT blow any seals.
    If you are using the T tap to vent overpressure, and close the T tap, your pressure will increase. Not sure how thats even a debatable issue.
    Last edited by Slick; 24-02-2017 at 10:16 AM.

  3. #28
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    Well pump
    I have not followed the discussion, however, a "water well pump" in Thailand is mostly a pump pulling water out of the well. However, not necesserily directly into the house piping.

    If the well is with concrete casing, with the water visible and not deeper than 9m, any simple pump (2,000 - 3,000 Baht) can be installed inside or outside of the well. The sucking pipe needs a sucking basket with a check valve - available in Thailand at each village hardware shop (mostly 1").




    If the well is drilled (bored) and not deeper than 9m, mostly a piston pump is often used in Thailand. Again, the sucking pipe is equipped with a sucking basket and a check valve for keeping the water in the sucking pipe.



    In both cases the water is pumped into a storage tank (equipped with a swimmer switch supervising the min/max levels. Then, only from the tank the water is taken by an automatic pump with a pressure switch (e.g. Mitsubishi) keeping a steady pressure in the piping system of the house.

  4. #29
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    ^ thanks didn't know you could buy nrv's in poly.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke
    In both cases the water is pumped into a storage tank (equipped with a swimmer switch supervising the min/max levels. Then, only from the tank the water is taken by an automatic pump with a pressure switch (e.g. Mitsubishi) keeping a steady pressure in the piping system of the house.
    In both cases a Mitsubishi, Hitachi or Lucky Star jet pump could be used, and you would not need any storage tank at all, nor a secondary pressure pump to the house. Just one jet pump to simultaneously pull water from the well, pressurize it in the built in bladder tank, and pipe it to the house.

    They all have a small bladder tank & pressure switch built in to the design and you can pipe it straight into the house. Open a tap, water comes on and the switch cycles the pump motor. Close the tap/shower and it shuts off.

    These pumps are sold at just about every local hardware shop across Thailand, along with check valves in PVC, Brass, and copper bodies.

    Examples, image searched:

    DT-P300GP is a "JET PUMP" and can be identified by the 2 (TWO) female pipe fittings on the face for the "suction" and "pressure" line:



    Diagram on how the Jet Pump works, the pumps readily available in Thailand, at every shop, are mostly all in one units like I posted above. Bladder tank on the base, pressure switch built in, ready to do. This just explains the setup:



    WT-P 150GX2 is a "CONSTANT PRESSURE PUMP" but can be used efficiently in very shallow "wells" 0-3 meters, anything after that the efficiency drops fast but still "works" but likely to cause pulsation at point of use:



    So they look very similar but work totally different.

    This pump is a Mitsubishi Constant Pressure Pump, but the Jet Pumps of the same color all look very similar, the bladder tank is on the base and the pressure switch is exposed. BTW those switches are readily sold at most mom & pop shops for like 150 baht and can be used for a ton of pressure regulating needs if one wants to engineer their own kit, and be used in a couple different ways.



    I usually tend to agree with the "Thai Way" of doing shit here as it usually promotes less aggravation in life, but in this instance, with house water & pressure, there is absolutely zero reason to follow what "they" do like somehow getting water from a hole, to your house, efficiently, becomes voodoo just because its Thailand. The principals work exactly the same and the basics are sold literally everywhere and there is zero reason to blindly follow because "This is Thailand"

    The $40 chinese pumps can "get water" but I mean its just asking for problems down the line if zero thought is put into it. Everything is here, sold commonly, to have a trouble free kit for years. Pumps, switches, bladder tanks, etc...

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slick
    Quote:
    In both cases a Mitsubishi, Hitachi or Lucky Star jet pump could be used, and you would not need any storage tank at all, nor a secondary pressure pump to the house. Just one jet pump to simultaneously pull water from the well, pressurize it in the built in bladder tank, and pipe it to the house.

    They all have a small bladder tank & pressure switch built in to the design and you can pipe it straight into the house. Open a tap, water comes on and the switch cycles the pump motor. Close the tap/shower and it shuts off.
    This is OK, once the water in the well is clean. This is mostly not the case in Thailand, the water contains a lot of iron/heavy metals and/or other alkalines.
    For that a sedimentation in a tank is necessary, supported by addition of chlorine (for faster oxidation) and alum (alaun - SaanSom - for faster sedimenting). Then, in addition, the pump pushes the water into the house through a filter (or a cascade of filters) to get rid off the remaining (unwanted) substances.

  7. #32
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    Has anyone used a windmill driven pump? Anyone who has been in the far outback in oz would have seen them.
    Just curious if anyone has done in LOS.

  8. #33
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    I cannot claim to be as omniscient as some :

    Having a storage tank fed by an inexpensive centrifugal pump is simple and effective.
    (perhaps that is why so many stupid dumb Thais have such a setup?)

    Direct household feed from a shallow open well has inherent problems:

    - well water getting low/drying in dry season.
    - Wet season surface run off muddying the water, build up of silt in the well with potential for clogging intake valve ,filters, shower heads etc...

    I am one of those who adhere to the KISS principle....bells and whistles often become headaches.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by crepitas
    (perhaps that is why so many stupid dumb Thais have such a setup?)
    If you have a well, why have a tank? I mean if the water supply is decent, then there is no reason unless the system is setup wrong or the well is too deep for a Jet.

    They have that setup because they are usually very cheap, and they don't really know how to use the items that are for sale efficiently. They want to 'get water' the cheapest way possible for the smallest amount of money possible and efficiency/longevity are typically not even a thought. It is in no way the best.

    Just because its Thailand does not mean there are not better ways to do things and in this instance the items are locally sold everywhere. Its not voodoo.

    Quote Originally Posted by crepitas
    Direct household feed from a shallow open well has inherent problems:

    - well water getting low/drying in dry season.
    - Wet season surface run off muddying the water, build up of silt in the well with potential for clogging intake valve ,filters, shower heads etc...
    People been getting water this way for thousands of years all over the world. Thailand is no different. I could give you several easy workarounds or faults with this logic but youve already make you mind up about it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by crepitas
    I am one of those who adhere to the KISS principle....bells and whistles often become headaches.
    Doesn't get any more easy than:

    Water > Pump > House

    Daisy chaining pumps and tanks and PVC seems silly when you can just do like above but if making excuses about it makes you feel better than go for it. Its definitely not KISS when the cheap chinese pump shorts in the middle of the night and the daisy chained system takes a dump because of a $40 part.

    As they say up to you. Im just trying to insert some more simple & modern ideas, that are not 'bells and whistles'.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slick
    But again no idea what OP's situation is, bore size, and current pump setup etc...
    Quote Originally Posted by Slick
    Honestly I have no Idea why Im bothering as well.
    You said it...

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    You said it...
    Well I guess maybe the thread title of "Well Pump Question" would be easily searchable, and the info relevant, so it might help others who stumble in here. OP's gone, but it can still help someone even if they don't post.

  12. #37
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    All,
    I apologize I did not get back to this thread. I have been on business travel.

    I do not have the specifics on the old pump. Its a 2 piston cast iron deal with no return/pressure bypass set up so as soon as my wife plugged in a sprinkler system I heard the pump load up and and I ran and shut it off and explained this is why it squuezes out Oring gaskets at the head.

    It worked perfectly for all these years with my FIL as all he did was turn it on and flood the land in the area he wanted to water or used an open hose. Now the landscaping has changed and we have lawns and gardens that require selective and uniform watering and this pump is just not what will work out.

    Vocal Neal, Slick and others, Thanks for the input, its invaluable. I likely could have researched this all out with our friend Google but personal experience from people is sometimes the best. I do not need a Jet pump. The water in the well is maybe 15 feet down. I need a pump that can pick up through a 2" pick up tube and be constant pressure. When I attached my Rain birds for the lawn or a watering nozzle it can bleed off the excess pressure kind of like a EFI system on a car where it has a bypass return line.

  13. #38
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    What you have is the installation in 99% of up country farmhouse.

    Maybe nothing wrong with the pump except age. The problem is that being a piston pump is that it is positive displacement and cannot be run against a closed or restricted outlet.

    Solution. The Crepitas idea of a bypass line with a valve.

    If the top of the well is accessible run the line back into the top of the well. If not put the bypass line into a T in the pump suction.

    If you redraw this picture to suit your installation with Thai words FIL will do it for you? So long as he knows how to glue blue pipe!



    If you buy the material then get him an adapter piece and a pressure gauge so he can adjust the sprinkler water pressure himself?

    He fixes the fault and keeps his pet pump running, you get your sprinklers.
    Last edited by VocalNeal; 28-02-2017 at 11:26 AM.
    No one on TD is gay. If suspect, it was probably because of the way they were reared.
    I apologize if any offence was caused. unless it was intended.
    You people, you think I know feck nothing; I tell you: I know feck all
    How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it.

  14. #39
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    ^ A bit unclear. Are you guys talking about just putting in a regular ole PVC valve and manually adjusting it? If so, the problem is it will not be automatic. It wont automatically adjust to whatever you are using. If you set it up to vent overpressure for, say, 5 sprinklers, and set it up to vent back to the well, maintaining, say, 35 psi at the sprinklers, thats good and will probably work.

    The problem is that if you decide to just use, say, just a garden hose, then it will need adjustment again. Any fuckup in load will pop the o-rings again. You'd need a couple pressure gauges, and every time you change ANY configuration, you will have to go back and change what you vent to maintain that constant pressure.

    If you use, say, 5 sprinklers AND a garden hose, and its setup to maintain 35 psi with that setting, and you brainfart and close the garden hose valve without shutting off the pump first, the pressure will spike because there is no automatic way to bypass that extra load you just put on the system. Popped o-rings again. And considering that it would seem that OP's pump is a bit stone age, and does not have a pressure switch, it has no way to know when to shut off.

    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    The problem is that being a piston pump is that it is positive displacement and cannot be run against a closed or restricted outlet.
    No pump can be run against a closed system without a system in place to either bypass, or shut it off. Since OP mentioned EFI, its the same thing as a hydrolock. You cant compress a liquid. Submersible pumps don't have pistons, and they will absolutely grenade a system if left to run unchecked.

    There isn't going to be an easy, cheap way to have an automatically adjusting, constant pressure system unless you know 100% that you will be using the exact same setup every time, and there is not going to be any restriction over time from say gunk and sediment.

    Offshore we use bypass regulators similar to EFI Fuel Pressure Regulators for the fire control systems. The pumps can run 100% all the time against 100% closed valves, but they have a bypass regulators with 100% duty cycles. They actually maintain a set pressure in the pressure side all the time from 0% output to 100% output with no adjustment by venting 100% all the way down to 0% depending on how many hoses you have active.

    Safety Relief valves are pricey, ones that work anyway.

    The AL 150 T 25A from here would probably get you there, but its about 8,000 baht. Japanese. Ive ordered from here before, pretty good, 2 day shipping and usually a good discount.

    http://www.udomkit.com/images/column...elief_4_59.pdf

    บริษัท อุดมกิจ ฟิตติ้ง วาล์ว จำกัด ผู้ผลิตอุปกรณ์ข้อต่อ หน้าแปลนเหล็กและสเตนเลส จำหน่าย วาล์วKITZ วาล์วTOYO วาล์วEBRO เซฟตี้วาล์ว เกจ์ ท่อเหล็ก ท่อประปา ท่อสเตนเลส ท่อพีวีซี ท่ออ่อนสเตนเลส ท่ออ่อนยางTOZEN เหล็กรูปพรรณ แป๊ปเหลี่ยม ลวดเชื่อมเหล็ก ปะเก็

    But the PVC manual valve will work, its just got to be babysat with pressure gauges and a lesson for the FIL if he has a hard time understanding it, if he's receptive to even giving a fuck. He might decide "too much work" as they do sometimes.

    There are other options but without knowing your budget or give a shit level of it all its hard to say. How many sprinklers, hoses, is it feeding a storage tank, feeding the house, watering the land AND the sprinklers, how much adjustability, etc...

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slick
    No pump can be run against a closed system without a system in place to either bypass, or shut it off.
    What a complete load of bollocks.

    Take a centrifugal pump with metal piping and run it against a closed valve it will sit there all day. OK it will get hot and should be shut down but in the real world they get shut off way before the liquid starts to boil. On a farm the pump is controlled with a manual switch. On to water the garden or fill the tank in the toilet and off when full. They have been doing this for 15 years+ in this case.

    We are talking about a manually controlled garden watering system in which and older guy has a bond with his old water pump that cost him a king's ransom when he bought it.

    Sure we can make it all automatic that's dead easy. But the current system is not. The current system has worked for 15 years for a hose pipe just the back pressure from the sprinklers is higher. If the manual ball valve is adjusted to allow the sprinklers to work then yes the flow from the hose pipe maybe slightly less but who cares. Just leave it on the ground for a bit longer while the FIL has another beer?

    Of course the OP can drive into town and buy a cheap modern village replacement piston pump that already has an integral relief valve. But again FIL does not get to keep his cherished pump.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    What a complete load of bollocks.
    Man if you wanna do what even yourself says not to do because a Thai farmer does it and its not broken yet then by all means go for it. Clearly you yourself knows it not to be a good idea, but yet continue on with 'bollocks' like the farmers have discovered some little known aspect of physics and pumping water. There is also the size of the centrifugal pump he's using as well. Buddha help him if he was to use one with a bit of ass.

    If staying inline with the 'cheapest available option' deal is what OP wants, then by all means go for it. 15 year old thai farmer system is adequate, great. Cracking a PVC valve and babysitting is enough, then awesome.

    There are several other factors to think about and that what I'm trying to raise. Sorry man I don't need to follow what some farmers do because 'they been doing it for 15 years' when there is a better option available.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slick
    There is also the size of the centrifugal pump he's using as well.
    The OP has a piston pump.

    Whilst it is fun to pontificate about offshore fire systems and vehicle fuel injection systems. Farm/village life operates differently.

    There are many correct ways to "fix" the OP's pumping problem. The most expensive fix may be OK for some but that may not be the way he wants to go.

    He wants to buy a new pump but recognizes that it is not his pump to replace.

    What has been suggested is the simplest way. Using parts that can be purchased in any farming shop in any small town in Thailand. Is it perfect? No

    Who knows the farming shop may have a cheap plastic back pressure valve designed specifically for this problem as there are a lot of old piston pumps working in villages in Thailand. The problem being that most farmers don't buy stuff from HomePro or Lazada.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    The OP has a piston pump.
    I know, witch is why I raised the hydrolock issue in the first place. I was talking about your comment here and how you can run it 'against a closed valve all day' :

    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    Take a centrifugal pump with metal piping
    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    What has been suggested is the simplest way. Using parts that can be purchased in any farming shop in any small town in Thailand. Is it perfect? No
    The image system you quoted in your above pic isn't using a PVC valve, its using a bypass regulator or pressure relief valve. They are the same thing, just different terminology. The explanation from your pic:

    This was provided through a bypass circuit (Figure 2) so that, as the water left the high-pressure manifold, it passed through a “T” connection with the perpendicular channel to the main flow carrying the water back to the original water tank. A flow control valve on this secondary circuit would control the orifice size the water had to pass through to get back to the water tank, thereby adjusting the flow down the main line to the nozzle, and concurrently controlling the pressure at which the water was driven.
    And this is the valve that would be able to get the job done, and the type that they are using, albeit on a more industrial scale and a shitload more pressure, automatically, with a constant pressure:

    The AL 150 T 25A from here would probably get you there, but its about 8,000 baht. Japanese. Ive ordered from here before, pretty good, 2 day shipping and usually a good discount.

    http://www.udomkit.com/images/column...elief_4_59.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    Whilst it is fun to pontificate about offshore fire systems and vehicle fuel injection systems. Farm/village life operates differently.
    But yet you quote an image diagram for a water jet system using a megaton of pressure to cut metals whilst simultaneously calling what I provided 'bollocks'.

    Using the same piston pump, he's got 2 choices, babysitting a PVC valve & pressure gauge, adjusting it every time a change is made in the system, and if a mistake is made, the pump pops o-rings and needs a repair. The other being a bypass regulator, like in an EFI system and like in your diagram and gaining automation.

    Aside from that, it gets more expensive and complicated. This whole issue OP is having is because there is a pump system thats being run unchecked. Ya just cant run these things like that, in any configuration, without thinking about it first.

    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    The problem being that most farmers don't buy stuff from HomePro or Lazada.
    Farmers here are good at making things work for little money, been doing it forever. That doesn't mean they know or understand how it fully works or if there is a better way, or if they even care to know.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slick
    The image system you quoted in your above pic isn't using a PVC valve, its using a bypass regulator or pressure relief valve. They are the same thing, just different terminology.
    You obviously can't read a P&ID. The symbol in my simple "example" diagram is for a manual ball valve. So even quoted the text for my "example" is flawed and doesn't fit the diagram.

    This is a ball valve



    This is a self contained pressure control valve.




    Now I don't expect the OP to be able to read a P&ID either, but I do expect him to have enough intelligence to be able to understand the principle involved. It is also not my intention to give the OP chapter and verse nor to try to justify any purchases I may or may not have made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick
    adjusting it every time a change is made in the system,
    The OP never stated that the system is in a constant state of change. Yes, no system should ever be considered in isolation. What the OP wants is for the system to be able to use his sprinklers with FIL's pump without blowing gaskets. Simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick
    This whole issue OP is having is because there is a pump system thats being run unchecked.
    You are saying it is run unchecked. No one else has.

    I will not be discussing this any more. It is irrelevant to the OP and will not help resolve the problem.


  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    You obviously can't read a P&ID.
    Thats a reach.

    Your shit literally states "Bypass Control Valve" on the diagram and then under the image, on the website where you stole it from, its explained further to be a bypass control valve or flow control valve from a water jet system.

    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    You are saying it is run unchecked. No one else has.
    Because its popping o-rings. If it was checked, it wouldn't to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    The OP never stated that the system is in a constant state of change. Yes, no system should ever be considered in isolation. What the OP wants is for the system to be able to use his sprinklers with FIL's pump without blowing gaskets. Simple.
    So is adding a bypass regulator. Both are simple to install, only one is simple in operation. Fact. Sugar coat it until your head explodes and meme it all up if it makes you feel better. The price would be the consideration imho.

    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    I will not be discussing this any more. It is irrelevant to the OP and will not help resolve the problem.
    Laughable. 1 might be able to solve the problem under perfect and repeatable circumstances, the other will, infact, completely solve the problem and provide automation, like an EFI system, with a constant pressure.

    Only thing you got right is this pointless debate.

    Nice meme btw. Classy.

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    Hi JPPR2, Did you get the well pump sorted out yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettronics View Post
    Hi JPPR2, Did you get the well pump sorted out yet?
    Well...yes and no. I am currently in the states on business so can't go mess around with it. The feedback has offered various ways to address from keep old piston pump and build up a bypass system which seems quite plausible. I am still leaning at a new system for efficiency and far less noise. That old piston deal can be heard all the time and when the belt starts to slip you can hear the pump loading up as I run to the switch.

    I will post up what I will do in a month or so. No time now. I let my FIL manage it the way he has for years. He is retired so he has time to tear down and fix when it takes a dive.

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    Hi, I have a Mitsubishi pump with the tank and pressure switch. It pumps into a 2000 liter tank and then another pump pressures the pipes to the home. Never a problem.

  24. #49
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    Ok, Wanted to get on this thread.

    After having time to look at this closer its clear this honestly does not need to be too complicated. I am buying a new continuous pressure pump and will install a pressure relief valve with a gauge and a return line to the well on the output side. I have calculated the pressure required to run the sprinklers but I will have it adjustable so we can adjust accordingly.

    Thanks for all the input.

    Cheers

  25. #50
    Thailand Expat
    OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    You obviously can't read a P&ID
    I can. Gissa a job mate.

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