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  1. #1
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    Building permit problem.. Phangan

    I have recently taken out a lease on land on Phangan with the intention of building a house.
    On visiting the municipality planning office to get plans approved and get a building permit... I was told... Can not do.
    According to the planning officers there it is only possible to give a planning permit to a farang-thai company not an individual farang.
    I know this not to be the case in thai law... Farang can not own land but can own their house built on leased land... Does not have to be via company ownership.
    Has anyone on Phangan or samui or elsewhere obtained a planning permit as an individual, and can anyone provide examples or links which would convince my local planners taht farang can build and own a house as an individual
    Any help with this unexpected glitch appreciated.
    Cheers

  2. #2
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    Have you met anyone else on Phangan who has built a house?

  3. #3
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    Am asking around... The few I know of have built via a farang thai limited company...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phanganguy
    I know this not to be the case in thai law... Farang can not own land but can own their house built on leased land... Does not have to be via company ownership.
    The law is irrelevant. It all depends how the local office interprets it. If you try and show they are wrong, they will only lose face if they admit it and will just make your life a hell from then on. Endless inspections, refusals, massive delays, etc.

    The brown envelope technique may work, but can also lead to later demands by everyone involved to a piece of the action themselves.
    You, sir, are a God among men....
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  5. #5
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    My thoughts also... That is why is just left the drawings with them... They are happy to do the plans... But not issue the building permit... I had no wish to precipitate the loss of face thing... They were also of the opinion that tne building permit could not be issued to a builder and then transfered to me... Basically they were saying... A farang can not, as an indvidual, own a house... But it is ok to go down the probably illegal, and expensive, thai company route duhhhhh

  6. #6
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    They must have been schooled by our local city council here in Ballarat Australia, cos they are just as hopeless.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phanganguy
    I know this not to be the case in thai law.
    How do you know this, laws complex and with the number of prosecutions on Koh Samui, any public servant will be covering his ass.

    When you say a 30 year lease, that normally would be considered a business lease, under tax laws and the owner would need [to be legal] to file tax returns on the income.

    Be very, very careful doing any land deals, dodgy lawyers are a plenty, but they will be gone at the first sign of problems.

    Catch all law in the land act, the director general may confiscate, without a court order, any lands that he believes is an attempt by aliens to own or control the use of land.

    More scams on those 3 islands then you can believe, best keep safe, don't do anything without using an international law firm.

  8. #8
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    The spirit of thai law is quite clear. with the exception of apartments, non-nationals should have nothing to do with thai land. Anyway owning or controlling land or whats on it, is playing games with the letter of the law.... something that is always done.

    The problem is that very few if any of these schemes to own/controls land have been tested in court, these precedents would not be useful to you if they did exist as precedents seem to be an alien concept to thai judges and essentially you are one populist politician away from losing the lot without compensation.... as james has more or less pointed out.
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  9. #9
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    Just a thought. You have a lease from a Thai. Correct. Then the land owner can apply for a building permit.
    In theory all you need to do is include the structure in your lease agreement. Get a decent lawyer to add this to your lease agreement.

    As the house will revert to the lessor after 30 years etc. they should be happy to apply for a permit and let you build what you want.

    Official is happy as he was right. Land owner has done no work and gets a house after 30 years or whatever so is happy. You get a house to live in so you are happy.
    Better to think inside the pub, than outside the box?
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  10. #10
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    Ihazz... I have no interest in owning land... i fully accept thai law
    I would Li,e to own a house I build on rented land on a 30 year lease
    I believe this to be (relatively clear for thailand) is perfectly acceptable under Thai law and civil code.... But show me where this is incorrect ie individual ownership of a house, built using my money, on a 30 year land lease....

    Vocalneil.... This is one option I am considering and is workable... The downside being that it would probably preclude sale of the house at any time by me and recuperation of any money.... I write off all construction costs effectively....

  11. #11
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    ^ I think that could be worked out in any amendment to the lease document.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal View Post
    Just a thought. You have a lease from a Thai. Correct. Then the land owner can apply for a building permit.
    In theory all you need to do is include the structure in your lease agreement. Get a decent lawyer to add this to your lease agreement.

    As the house will revert to the lessor after 30 years etc. they should be happy to apply for a permit and let you build what you want.

    Official is happy as he was right. Land owner has done no work and gets a house after 30 years or whatever so is happy. You get a house to live in so you are happy.
    Exactly what I was going to suggest as the most pragmatic option. Whether the land owner will agree for free, though, when he probably knew all along .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Phanganguy View Post
    .... But show me where this is incorrect ie individual ownership of a house, built using my money, on a 30 year land lease....
    It's correct, as long as it's written into the lease as something you're allowed to do with the land, or at least not excluded, but so what?

    Are you seriously going to take the local land office to court??


    Quote Originally Posted by Phanganguy View Post
    ... The downside being that it would probably preclude sale of the house at any time by me and recuperation of any money.... I write off all construction costs effectively....
    If it's already written into the lease that you can sell your lease on the land, there's no reason why that shouldn't be extended to include anything on it ... if it's not written in, you're writing off all the costs anyway.

    Silly question (I hope) but did you get the lease checked out by a lawyer and ask them about building permission? ... and if the lease allowed you to apply for building permission? ... and if you can sell the lease on, and what happens to it in the even of your death, etc? If so, hand it back to the lawyer to sort out. If not .....

  13. #13
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    Life is never simple in thailand.... And I have lived her off and on for 30 years
    The lease does include the option to build a house... No problem there
    The repatriation of money on a house sale comes from something not many farang think about... Money used to build, or buy a house can only be taken out of Thailand if there is a foreign exchange transfer form for the money used on the house.... If the Lessor builds the house in their name but using my money... Tnere will be no fetf.... And so the money will not be recoverable from Thailand if I ever sell the house.... Its a complicated issue that there is insufficient time to go in to here... Effectively this option may mean that I effectively tie up the cost of house build in thai baht and not able to remove from the country

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phanganguy View Post
    Money used to build, or buy a house can only be taken out of Thailand if there is a foreign exchange transfer form for the money used on the house..Effectively this option may mean that I effectively tie up the cost of house build in thai baht and not able to remove from the country
    Well surely you'll be bringing a lump of money into the country for this ? So ask the bank for a TT3 form for this money showing you brought it in and then you'll be able to take it out .



    Wasp

  15. #15
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    If the Lessor builds the house... The house is in their name... So I can not have used the money to build the house... Its a circular argument....

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phanganguy View Post

    Life is never simple in Thailand.... And I have lived her off and on for 30 years

    Mate,

    I also have been coming to Thailand for 30 years and have now lived here for 2.5 years.

    The most important thing I have ever learned regards this gong show is to not build or Invest shit.

    Plenty of places on Phan-Gan for rent.

    Why not grab a cheapo, spend a few K doing it up and live happily ever after just swanning around Ghan having a criag.

    That's what I'm doing, then don't give a flying fuk what happens in Monkey town.

    Keep your money under your control at the same time.

    Especially on the Islands,

    The corruption is rampant on Ghan and fixing up a farang would be a top laugh for them.

    You're certainly taking a big risk thinking they will do things buy the book that's for sure.

    Anyway, good luck with it mate.
    Last edited by terry57; 27-02-2016 at 05:43 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phanganguy View Post
    If the Lessor builds the house... The house is in their name... So I can not have used the money to build the house... Its a circular argument....
    If you brought 2 Million Baht into the country in one lump you get a TT3 form showing you brought in 2 Million Baht .

    If you are lucky enough to sell for 3 Million you put 2 Million back in that bank ...... and you can take out the 2 Million but not 3 Million .

    You can take out what you bring in .



    Wasp

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phanganguy View Post
    If the Lessor builds the house... The house is in their name... So I can not have used the money to build the house... Its a circular argument....
    If you brought 2 Million Baht into the country in one lump you get a TT3 form showing you brought in 2 Million Baht .

    If you are lucky enough to sell for 3 Million you put 2 Million back in that bank ...... and you can take out the 2 Million but not 3 Million .

    You can take out what you bring in .

    Wasp
    Agreed again - two minds with a single thought. Oh dear!

    All introducing a building into the equation is doing is over-complicating the issue, as you then start on farangs owning property, etc. This was intended for condos, not leased land.

    As for the price going up, remember the length of the lease (if it's sellable? ) is going down. Chances of making any profit are rather slim.

  19. #19
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    Let's fucking start with the fucking basics shall we?

    Have you got a chanote... Or a sor nor blah blah 54321?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by terry57 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phanganguy View Post

    Life is never simple in Thailand.... And I have lived her off and on for 30 years

    Mate,

    I also have been coming to Thailand for 30 years and have now lived here for 2.5 years.

    The most important thing I have ever learned regards this gong show is to not build or Invest shit.

    Plenty of places on Phan-Gan for rent.

    Why not grab a cheapo, spend a few K doing it up and live happily ever after just swanning around Ghan having a criag.

    That's what I'm doing, then don't give a flying fuk what happens in Monkey town.

    Keep your money under your control at the same time.

    Especially on the Islands,

    The corruption is rampant on Ghan and fixing up a farang would be a top laugh for them.

    You're certainly taking a big risk thinking they will do things buy the book that's for sure.

    Anyway, good luck with it mate.

    I've lived here for over 20 years, half the time I rented and the other half I owned the house and I'm in the middle of having a house built which is what I want and where I want.

    Advantages to both.

    When I rented a house it was a dream, on a private (ish) beach with a lot of land for 15,000 a month. Magic. After a few years of magic the owner gave it to his son as a 21st birthday present and I found out that it was for sale but he hadn't told us as 'it's not sold yet'. At over 130 million it was out of my price range, and luckily before it was sold I found somewhere else which I bought and was lucky enough to sell that at a nice profit a few years later when we wanted to move.

    There's nothing anything like what we want available to rent or buy where we both want to live, and if we came to sell it would almost certainly be at a loss, but its where we want to spend the rest of our lives together so its either that or live in something we don't want to live or somewhere we don't want to be.

    Take your pick!!

  21. #21
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    Im with johng on this... Have rented, want to be able to do my own thing....I have no expectation of making any money, expect to lose money ( its called blowing the kids inheritnce)
    Ive done the 'just having a good time' time'
    I have mafia friends on tbe island, I have senior government officer friends on the island
    I just have.... Difficult planning officers 555

    Duhhh of course I havnt got a chanote!!!! Farang can not own land!!! I rent, want to get planning permit to build... Cant be clearer...
    The simple question is.... Who on teakdoor has managed to get their tessaban planning officers to give a building permit authorisation to a farang.... So I can give examples to my tessaban planners...

  22. #22
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    ^
    I'm not try to be a smart cont here but if you have high flying Government contacts on Ghan then why can they not assist you. ?

    All the years I've been in Thailand it's been all about the contacts.

    I lived on Ghan back in 88 and ran a motorcycle business there so know all about how important contacts are.

    So whats up with your contacts ?

    Great Island back then by the way. I must get back and have a little looky.

    Good luck with it mate.

  23. #23
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    I have a nasty suspicion that, with the recent central government crackdown on graft.... At long last Thailand is becoming less of a wild west....

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phanganguy View Post
    I have a nasty suspicion that, with the recent central government crackdown on graft.... At long last Thailand is becoming less of a wild west....
    It's called computers, I live in the ass end of Issan, everything was paper years ago, farangs could own land, just a bit of paper.

    Now things go on data bases, meaning BKK can see, can't lose or burn dodgy deals, there for ever.

    On the lease hold stuff, look at reasons a lease can be voided, one case comes to mind, farmer Joe and his turkeys, water tight lease, courts didn't think so.

    Posted before, want to build a house, buy the land in one of my kids names, nothing can be done until they are 20 without a court order. When you die they will get the place, look outside the square.

  25. #25
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    I think VN's got the best idea, with getting the owner to apply for the permit in his name.

    Why not go to the office first, since they already know the house is for you anyway, ask them if the owner can make the application, then you can go to the owner knowing it'll be OK if he agrees to apply? If he agrees he's gen, if not maybe he's the source of the problem.

    edit: and obviously you don't have a chanute (!!!), but you should have a copy with the lease on it as I'm sure you have.

    ... and I have to agree with those who've said proving to the planning office that they're wrong may not be a good idea. I'm all for "keep it simple" .....
    Last edited by JohnG; 28-02-2016 at 11:02 PM.

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