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  1. #1
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    Boundary Wall Law vs Traditional Use

    We have a case of a land development company purchasing land that extends for five lots along a E-W property survey line of long standing, they are on the northern side, we have the three eastern lots on the southern side enclosed by a two meter cement block fence constructed entirely on our property as it is set-back a few centimeters from the property lines.

    The developers built a new fence section spanning the two lots to the west that separate our lots from the main road. Instead of building north of the property line on their land, they moved boundary markers in order to align their fence directly with ours. They constructed their fence south of the property line over the vacant lot of an absentee owner, and tied their end post directly to our corner post. They claim that our fence represents the real property line, the established property line and boundary markers be damned. They have invoked the traditional Thai custom of shared use of boundary fences and intend to modify our fence to match theirs in appearance.

    It is my understanding that set-back boundary fences built entirely on their owner's property remain, like the case in other countries such as the United States, the exclusive property of that owner, especially when surveyed property lines and boundary markers exist, and are immune to claims of mutual use. All the neighbors agree the movement of the boundary markers was illegal, but can't quite grasp the legal distinction between a mutually built fence on top of a shared property line and a set-back fence built entirely by one owner exclusively on their property. When asked if a property line is determined by existing boundary markers, which it is a crime to move, or a nearby fence running along side they get puzzled.

    Anyone know what the specific laws, codes, regulations, etc., not traditional customs, are regarding cases like this? We are located about 8km south of M. Chiangmai.
    Last edited by mthompson; 22-12-2014 at 04:34 PM.

  2. #2
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    Dunno about boundary laws and I aint about to get me magnifying glass out to read that lot !

    There ought to be a font size law though

  3. #3
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    Before spending on lawyers

    1 Check markers,have they been moved
    2 Is the chanote done on modern areila foto method
    3 How much time cost is it worth to you?
    4 I think Id feel annoyed however if you are going to have to live with the neigbours consequences
    5 As you evidently ow the land as the owners of all encroached land if they want to fight it remembering that allegiances may not be obvious
    I used to have a job at a calendar factory.
    I got the sack because
    I took a couple of days off.

  4. #4
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    If there is a chanote contact the land office and get them to survey the land, if there is any discrepancy with where the boundary lines should be they'll sort it out, unless the land development company has got in first and paid the land office a bribe.

  5. #5
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    We have a case of a land development company purchasing land that extends for five lots along a E-W property survey line of long standing, they are on the northern side, we have the three eastern lots on the southern side enclosed by a two meter cement block fence constructed entirely on our property as it is set-back a few centimeters from the property lines.

    The developers built a new fence section spanning the two lots to the west that separate our lots from the main road. Instead of building north of the property line on their land, they moved boundary markers in order to align their fence directly with ours. They constructed their fence south of the property line over the vacant lot of an absentee owner, and tied their end post directly to our corner post. They claim that our fence represents the real property line, the established property line and boundary markers be damned. They have invoked the traditional Thai custom of shared use of boundary fences and intend to modify our fence to match theirs in appearance.

    It is my understanding that set-back boundary fences built entirely on their owner's property remain, like the case in other countries such as the United States, the exclusive property of that owner, especially when surveyed property lines and boundary markers exist, and are immune to claims of mutual use. All the neighbors agree the movement of the boundary markers was illegal, but can't quite grasp the legal distinction between a mutually built fence on top of a shared property line and a set-back fence built entirely by one owner exclusively on their property. When asked if a property line is determined by existing boundary markers, which it is a crime to move, or a nearby fence running along side they get puzzled.

    Anyone know what the specific laws, codes, regulations, etc., not traditional customs, are regarding cases like this? We are located about 8km south of M. Chiangmai.
    Thats better.

  6. #6
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    http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0334.pdf

    Here you go - the thai law straight from the horses mouth. Not worth the paper it is written on depending how connected the developer is.

  7. #7
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    OP, the way I read your post, they have not moved your marker points, just followed your wall.
    The guy who owns the other land, where they built the walls, problem, not yours.
    What do you mean by they intend to modify your wall to match theirs, it's your wall, you can knock it down, then they can build their own wall.
    More to it, me thinks. Jim

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    Two things a Thai will fight over, women and land. Get yer boxing gloves on you're in for a fight.

  9. #9
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    Angry

    I know nothing .

    Nothing , nothing , nothing .

    But my intestines are saying to me ....... Thai v. Fallang . You lose .


    And even if you win how are you ever going to enforce it ?


    But it's wrong.



    Wsp
    Last edited by Wasp; 22-12-2014 at 05:15 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigelandjan View Post
    Dunno about boundary laws and I aint about to get me magnifying glass out to read that lot !

    There ought to be a font size law though
    In Firefox the text size looks just fine, in Opera it looks too damn small... For what it is worth, I just edited it to increase the size.

    I get the impression this post will have small text as well, but when I try editing to increase the size it doesn't respond as the original did...

    What is the normal size and font used here?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthompson View Post
    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]

    It is my understanding that set-back boundary fences built entirely on their owner's property remain, like the case in other countries such as the United States, the exclusive property of that owner, especially when surveyed property lines and boundary markers exist, and are immune to claims of mutual use.
    Your property is your property according to the survey markers your wall if set back is wholly yours. I have seen lots of places with two walls with no gaps in between or very little. If the wall is 100% on your property they cannot claim it as shared and as it was there before they started. Get yourself a lawyer and a copy of your original survey. Or build yourself what is called a "spite" wall a big ugly fucker. At the very least get written access to the other side of your wall for painting it a god awful colour.

    Before they get to far ahead build some structure which is affixed to the outside of your wall utilizing the few centimeters set aside for such a structure. If you do nothing not only do you lose the few centimeters but also half your wall and the right to tear it down or modify it in the future. if they tear down your structure that would be willful damage or at worst vandalism.

    Plan B don't get mad get even

    Plan C as I said build a spite wall a huge ugly Mother.

    Plan D buy some pigs and start a farm

    Treat it like a hobby.. might be fun for years?
    Last edited by VocalNeal; 22-12-2014 at 05:25 PM.
    Better to think inside the pub, than outside the box?
    I apologize if any offence was caused. unless it was intended.
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  12. #12
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    What is the normal size and font used here?

    Size 2.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamescollister View Post
    OP, the way I read your post, they have not moved your marker points, just followed your wall.
    The guy who owns the other land, where they built the walls, problem, not yours.
    What do you mean by they intend to modify your wall to match theirs, it's your wall, you can knock it down, then they can build their own wall.
    More to it, me thinks. Jim
    The northern boundary marker between my lot and the one to the west was moved, it is one of my property markers.

    You are correct that the new wall is built primarily on my neighbor's land and that is his problem. My question wasn't about that, it was about whether or not Thai law recognizes set-back fences as the exclusive property of the owner of the land the fence sits on.

    What do I mean? I mean a work crew banging on our fence one morning and their foreman telling me they can do whatever they want to that side of our fence which faces them. This is basically a claim to traditional shared or mutual use of a boundary fence.

    '.. it's your wall..' That's what I told them, they've stopped for now but they don't like it.

    More to it? Nope, regardless of what you may think.

  14. #14
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    tell them you paid a master mason 400k to build it and ask for their half...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus View Post
    Here you go - the thai law straight from the horses mouth. Not worth the paper it is written on depending how connected the developer is.
    Thanks, will look it over. Sure, TIT, I know all that, but my wife's family is not without some clout. Am just trying to get some basic info right now, and hoped to find someone else who has dealt with a similar situation.

  16. #16
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    Your property is your property. If they moved the markers move them back.
    If you had happened to build a wall 3m in from the boundary, that wouldn't give them legal rights to your 3mx of land would it?

    Having said that, you said it is inset a few cm....it is worth arguing about?
    Last house I build in Oz the builder fucked up and built the fence 20cm in the adjoining plot, I didnt know until the owner and his suveyor started running around with tape measures when he started to build. He just shrugged and sad it wasn;t worth the bother and forgot about it.

  17. #17
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    ^ but the OP will lose the right to tear down his wall in the future should he wish to. Or to make it higher.

    In fact in retrospect that might be a plan. If the wall is only 1.8m and local statute says maximum 3m then immediately the OP should build his section up to 3m. Or at least get a small section started up to 3m, the maximum. This may not fit in with the developer who will then complain and the whole thing will come to light.

    Or the OP should stick some ugly razor wire or barbed wire on HIS wall.

    Illegitimi non carborundum

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal View Post
    Your property is your property according to the survey markers your wall if set back is wholly yours. I have seen lots of places with two walls with no gaps in between or very little. If the wall is 100% on your property they cannot claim it as shared and as it was there before they started....
    That sounds good to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal View Post
    If you do nothing not only do you lose the few centimeters but also half your wall and the right to tear it down or modify it in the future.
    That was my reasoning, especially after they moved the markers and just stuck their post to ours without a so much by your leave. Their whole attitude seems one of deliberately rearranging everything for their benefit so they gain control. The one mitigating circumstance was that their 'assistant' foreman actually, believe it or not, told my wife and myself that he is the one that moved the markers because they don't mean anything and he wanted their fence to be in-line with ours. I get the impression he is so full of himself he might have acted on his own, but then the company owner, an American in the US right now, admitted in an email he authorized the work on our fence. Hubris, stupidity, I don't know, maybe both, but maybe this can all be resolved without recourse to a legal fight, as if they don't claim mutual ownership I might be willing to give them permission to make cosmetic changes. No real reason not to in that case as long as they want to be reasonable.

    Thanks for the advice.

  19. #19
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    One question which is halfway related to this thread.

    Why in this country do they have a 'no mans land' between neighbouring properties? I have a space of about one foot between my back fence and the back fence of the property behind me.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasp View Post
    What is the normal size and font used here?

    Size 2.
    I see, where someone quoted me, the font size was listed as Arial size 3... I normally use Verdana in my email program which is where I originally typed the first topic post. I seem to remember when posting thinking that my email settings had gotten transferred along with the text and I probably fiddled with the setting here as the preview in Firefox didn't look right. Mea Culpa, sorry about that. I'll keep my hands off those settings from now on.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mthompson View Post
    [font=Arial][size=3]

    It is my understanding that set-back boundary fences built entirely on their owner's property remain, like the case in other countries such as the United States, the exclusive property of that owner, especially when surveyed property lines and boundary markers exist, and are immune to claims of mutual use.
    Your property is your property according to the survey markers your wall if set back is wholly yours. I have seen lots of places with two walls with no gaps in between or very little. If the wall is 100% on your property they cannot claim it as shared and as it was there before they started. Get yourself a lawyer and a copy of your original survey. Or build yourself what is called a "spite" wall a big ugly fucker. At the very least get written access to the other side of your wall for painting it a god awful colour.

    Before they get to far ahead build some structure which is affixed to the outside of your wall utilizing the few centimeters set aside for such a structure. If you do nothing not only do you lose the few centimeters but also half your wall and the right to tear it down or modify it in the future. if they tear down your structure that would be willful damage or at worst vandalism.

    Plan B don't get mad get even

    Plan C as I said build a spite wall a huge ugly Mother.

    Plan D buy some pigs and start a farm

    Treat it like a hobby.. might be fun for years?
    Nice.....

  22. #22
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    OP, start simple, go to the Tessiban office and see what they have planing permission for, then to the land office making a formal complaint that they tampered with a land marker.
    This yank owning the company sounds fishy, he could be a builder, but not the land owner, nominee companies are illegal.
    If anyone starts work on your wall call the police, it's your wall, not a shared wall.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamescollister View Post
    OP, start simple, go to the Tessiban office and see what they have planing permission for, then to the land office making a formal complaint that they tampered with a land marker.
    This yank owning the company sounds fishy, he could be a builder, but not the land owner, nominee companies are illegal.
    If anyone starts work on your wall call the police, it's your wall, not a shared wall.
    I agree, the family is just gathering background info right now, then they are going to try negotiations as no one is interested in a court fight, but if the developer demands traditional shared use rights it will go to court.

    He may have said he was the company founder, not the owner, I get the impression that he probably put up most of the money. The construction manager I had the discussion with about their working on our fence actually seems like he might be a Thai partner but who knows.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by palexxxx View Post
    One question which is halfway related to this thread.

    Why in this country do they have a 'no mans land' between neighbouring properties? I have a space of about one foot between my back fence and the back fence of the property behind me.

    It would seem to verify the fact that if you build your fence entirely on your property your neighbor can't touch it, so if they want a different wall structure or appearance they just build their own. The narrow space might be for raising pet snakes... I don't really know, maybe its just a construction artifact.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthompson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jamescollister View Post
    OP, start simple, go to the Tessiban office and see what they have planing permission for, then to the land office making a formal complaint that they tampered with a land marker.
    This yank owning the company sounds fishy, he could be a builder, but not the land owner, nominee companies are illegal.
    If anyone starts work on your wall call the police, it's your wall, not a shared wall.
    I agree, the family is just gathering background info right now, then they are going to try negotiations as no one is interested in a court fight, but if the developer demands traditional shared use rights it will go to court.

    He may have said he was the company founder, not the owner, I get the impression that he probably put up most of the money. The construction manager I had the discussion with about their working on our fence actually seems like he might be a Thai partner but who knows.
    This is not a traditional boundary thing, I have a small factory, one side the boundary is marked by trees. Charnote pegs show the legal boundary, trees are the traditional boundary, some trees are on my side, or more on my side, some on the other guys side.
    Who owns the trees, big trees, answer, whatever side planted them. Planted years and years ago, lands changed hands over the years, original planter, long gone.
    That's a traditional dispute over ownership, your case is not, be it a few centimeters or 10 meters, it's on your land, charnote states the boundary, local tradition on the land border is gone.
    Don't know your area, get the village head, or sub district gov to tell the builders to piss off, they want to dispute it, they can take you to court.
    You can't pay the land office a bribe on charnote land now, records are held in BKK on computer.
    Remember, this is Thailand and you are told only what they want you to know. Jim

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