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  1. #1
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    Weird electrical short

    Chaps

    3 days running one of the fuses is tripping at 7am. It runs the lights in the kitchen and 4th unused bedroom and the water pump. The pump is problematic and needs replacing (short cycles once a week). I turn everything off and yet it still trips. It's almost as if a timer switch is turning on somewhere but I have no idea where? Its not connected to the pool house pump room which does turn on at 7am, but this is not connected to that ring circuit. Yesterday it was pissing down when it tripped so I thought something gotwet. Today though, not raining.

    What else can I look at/? Is it something simple like needing to change the switch? Should I replace the switch to the water pump and the water pump? What else can I look at because it is not turning on even though I have turned everything off on that ring everything else works fine if I turn that fuse off).

    Ideas?
    Originally Posted by bsnub "No wonder I drive a tesla"

  2. #2
    I am in Jail

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    Spend some money get a Thai sparky....

  3. #3
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    a lot easier to point them at the problem and get them to fix that rather than let them loose around the housing making shit up, and the problem happens again the next day,

  4. #4
    The Fool on the Hill
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    Replace the pump. you know it is problematic. Possible intermittent short. Possibly the problem. First thing to eliminate.

    As far as coincidental timing issues. A possible industrial load turning on at 7AM could cause a load on the grid (momentary brownout condition) which may affect your house circuit enough to trip fuses - unlikely, but if your running on the ragged edge of capacity?

  5. #5
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    You say that the pool house pump is not connected to that ring circuit but that the pump is timed to go on at 7am, why don't you change the timer on the pump to start at 8am and then see whether the fuse is still tripping at 7am tomorrow or whether it will do it at 8am, then you'll know whether the pump is causing it or not.

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    Pseudo, are you there?...Feck, I hope he didn't short himself...

  7. #7
    The Fool on the Hill
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    Probably changing the pump timer.

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    I am in Jail

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    ^ he's in the the pool, seems its become live....

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by palexxxx
    You say that the pool house pump is not connected to that ring circuit but that the pump is timed to go on at 7am, why don't you change the timer on the pump to start at 8am and then see whether the fuse is still tripping at 7am tomorrow or whether it will do it at 8am, then you'll know whether the pump is causing it or not.
    Good idea - will do that. Now I noticed this morning after writing this that the filter pump was not running then even though the timer goes on at 7. Will play around with it tonight after work to see if manually turning it on will trigger the trip.

    I know that we are on the edge of capacity - if the 2 big air con units in the lounge are on, and the missus runs a bath, the water heater trips the house every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by bowie
    Probably changing the pump timer.
    Will have a go.

    Quote Originally Posted by bowie
    Replace the pump. you know it is problematic.
    Yup - the project for this weekend already. However, when I turn the pump off from the isolate switch, it still happens.

    I'm starting to think that a gecko has chewed a light cable somewhere or similar and that is getting wet and tripping. Also, there is a small string of outside wall mounted lights that are connected to that ring. I don't and have never used them and I'm not sure if they might be on with dead bulbs, and that is the problem. Thing is, I don't think I know the right switch for them anyway as I have never used them. I checked them all though and they are all secure and showing no sign of water in the works.

    Anyway - can I discount completely changing the breaker for the circuit? I am right in thinking that the breaker is good or bad and nothing in between? It will work or not work?

    My suspicion is also on the water pump, but should I also change the isolate switch which has a damaged cover anyway? After all, still happen when the switch is off. As far as I know, I have everything turned off when I try to turn it back on only for it to trip again and make a grinding noise in the fuse box. This noise does make me think that the breaker is dud though.

  10. #10
    The Fool on the Hill
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    can I discount completely changing the breaker for the circuit?
    Unfortunately you can't discount anything. An intermittent short could occur in any component or wire.

    Its very hard to troubleshoot electrical problems without being there.

    Changing the timer setting could eliminate the pool house pump.

    Change the circuit breaker. As they age sometimes they will trip at a lower electrical current values than they should. So, they safety device itself may be the problem.

    Air conditioners turning on and off can also cause momentary brownout conditions in your house. Brownouts reduce the voltage and cause electrical equipment to draw more current - this can cause overloads and breaker trips.

    Good luck with your hunting.

  11. #11
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    How many amp breaker is it? Is it an RCD type or just a standard breaker?

    The pump may be the problem, but keep your nose awake in case you have some arcing going on somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thailazer View Post
    How many amp breaker is it? Is it an RCD type or just a standard breaker?

    The pump may be the problem, but keep your nose awake in case you have some arcing going on somewhere.
    I can not see though how it can be the pump. Its on a separate ring to the problem one. Here is the breaker.



    I am going to change it I think. Reasoning being that it gets a lot of action with the water pump, especially when it was short cycling for a few weeks until I worked out what that was and how to sort it out. Just seems like the easiest likely fix.

  13. #13
    TD Fat Club VP Dillinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    3 days running one of the fuses is tripping at 7am
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    What else can I look at
    Setting the Missus alarm clock to 7am ?

    'Put your knickers on and make a cup of tea darling'

  14. #14
    Pronce. PH said so AGAIN!
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    13 posts in and nobody has called first dibs on Pseudolus' stuff yet? For shame TD!

    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    Just seems like the easiest likely fix.
    This seems like an appropriate time to make that call.

    Just in case like..

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by quimbian corholla View Post
    13 posts in and nobody has called first dibs on Pseudolus' stuff yet? For shame TD!

    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    Just seems like the easiest likely fix.
    This seems like an appropriate time to make that call.

    Just in case like..
    Hmmm not got much worth "inheriting" anyway considering the board is by the bookshelf and will ignite that when I start to burn with my cock acting lick a candle wick. So it will all be gone. Will someone look after my dogs? They won't need much as they will be full after eating me fresh from the grill.

  16. #16
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    If the pump is suspect (as it will draw amps). One could test inrush amps (The amperage drawn to begin to turn the armature that is turning the pump).A FLUKE multitester is commonly used for this.Inrush amps are greater than running amps as it takes more energy (amps) to start a stopped armature. If it were a true short the breaker would (Should) trip as soon as you try to reset it.A ground fault circuit interrupter would not cause the circuit breaker to trip.The ground fault would be detected by the GFCI. This is not an over amp situation. An aged motor will draw more amps and it may exceed the breaker upon start up.PS dont sue me if it all goes south. I have only worked at a few Power Plants.

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    OK photo shop it was. I really cant say I have worked lately either.That would be breech of contract.
    Last edited by fishlocker; 09-10-2014 at 02:30 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishlocker View Post
    If the pump is suspect (as it will draw amps). One could test inrush amps (The amperage drawn to begin to turn the armature that is turning the pump).A FLUKE multitester is commonly used for this.Inrush amps are greater than running amps as it takes more energy (amps) to start a stopped armature. If it were a true short the breaker would (Should) trip as soon as you try to reset it.A ground fault circuit interrupter would not cause the circuit breaker to trip.The ground fault would be detected by the GFCI. This is not an over amp situation. An aged motor will draw more amps and it may exceed the breaker upon start up.PS dont sue me if it all goes south. I have only worked at a few Power Plants.
    Right.

    But as the breaker still trips when the pump isolate switch is turned off so the power is getting nowhere near the pump itself, I think it can be ruled out? This morning, I turned everything off and unplugged everything Turned it on, 10 seconds later it tripped again. Left it a while, turned it on, tripped in about 2 seconds.

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    In this case an wire diagram would be helpful. Each portion, every switch, devise, wire, should be checked. Seems the easy explanations ie motor over amp are ruled out if you have in fact opened circuit to the motors or other devises. The time frame the breaker takes to trip is troubling. I could see something as simple as a faulty toaster oven tripping the breaker. Water and electrons seems a stretch as one would think instant trip as water does not evaporate quickly, insulation cracked ect. Regardless stay safe. It may be a job for the BIL. Just kidding!!!!!!

  20. #20
    disturbance in the Turnip baldrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    fuses
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    tripping
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    switch
    I guess it is a circuit breaker you are talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    But as the breaker still trips when the pump isolate switch is turned off
    is the pump isolate switch a 2 pole isolater ? maybe they are just switching the neutral

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick
    is the pump isolate switch a 2 pole isolater ? maybe they are just switching the neutral
    You might be right actually - it outer box if not perfect so something might be interfering there or wet! Will replace that and the breaker tonight and see what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishlocker
    It may be a job for the BIL. Just kidding!!!!!!
    I get a feeling it was the BIL of the guy that built the place that has caused the mountain of problems in the first place!

  23. #23
    lom
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus View Post



    I am going to change it I think. Reasoning being that it gets a lot of action with the water pump, especially when it was short cycling for a few weeks until I worked out what that was and how to sort it out. Just seems like the easiest likely fix.
    Fekk, you must have a real huge meter and mains switch since the sections your photo shows makes up for 200 Amps together not counting the unseen to the right. Are you running a production factory there?

  24. #24
    lom
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus
    I get a feeling it was the BIL of the guy that built the place that has caused the mountain of problems in the first place!
    Sure and he would had used 50 Amp breakers for all circuits had they not been temporarily out of stock. A typical Thai "lekky" job..

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudolus View Post



    I am going to change it I think. Reasoning being that it gets a lot of action with the water pump, especially when it was short cycling for a few weeks until I worked out what that was and how to sort it out. Just seems like the easiest likely fix.
    Fekk, you must have a real huge meter and mains switch since the sections your photo shows makes up for 200 Amps together not counting the unseen to the right. Are you running a production factory there?
    No! A 4 bed house, big pool and air con and that's about it. The pump or what ever - would it need 32 a?

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