Thread: Guantanamo disgrace... show your stories here.

Originally Posted by Panda

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Butterfly

why would stop another country from kidnapping US soldiers and put them in detention for ever ? nobody according to Tex.

I guess Vietnam did that already, and it was all "legal" and "justified"

That's the final irony of it all as far as I can see too. If Tex and others, as American citizens, are prepared to deny the rights of others then they, also as American citizens, cannot expect to be accorded any rights in return. But they do.

To extrapolate the situation a bit further, according to Texs logic every captured US soldier should be charged with murder or at the very least, conspiriosy to comit murder.

Yep, only they can't actually be 'charged'. Just held on the principle of maybe, someday, applying a charge. No actual process or trial in the interim.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Panda

Still trying to change the subject there hey Tex.

Gets quite tedious, doesn't it. You can throw a blanket over some of the American posters in Issues at times. All the name-calling, disingenuous and constant shifting of the posts, lack of intellectual-honesty and integrity kinda blurs together after a point. Doesn't matter who it's coming from it sounds the same.

Its an old debating trick. Throw out a red herring when in a corner and hope someone will pick it up and run with it. A good way of avoiding the subject at hand if things are going bad on your side of the debate.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Yep, only they can't actually be 'charged'. Just held on the principle of maybe, someday, applying a charge. No actual process or trial in the interim.

that's when torture becomes handy. Tex is actually advocating torturing US soldiers in a time of war, forgetting about the Geneva Convention (a supranational charter that is technically above the US constitution) that specifically regulates such acts.

^ Your summary is about as confused and incorrect as your 'contributions' to this thread.

So no change there then.

^^ a bit of a pantomime?

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Panda

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Butterfly

why would stop another country from kidnapping US soldiers and put them in detention for ever ? nobody according to Tex.

I guess Vietnam did that already, and it was all "legal" and "justified"

That's the final irony of it all as far as I can see too. If Tex and others, as American citizens, are prepared to deny the rights of others then they, also as American citizens, cannot expect to be accorded any rights in return. But they do.

To extrapolate the situation a bit further, according to Texs logic every captured US soldier should be charged with murder or at the very least, conspiriosy to comit murder.

Yep, only they can't actually be 'charged'. Just held on the principle of maybe, someday, applying a charge. No actual process or trial in the interim.

Who says? If the US can throw out the rule book of war under the Geneva conventions they signed to, then you can bet their opponents will play by the same lack of rules.

Now lets hear the US cry babies shouting -- " but they done it first, so that makes it OK" ! Fucken wankers. Its a tough world, but if we are ever going to get some order and peace in this world we need to have global military policemen we can look up to and respect. Right now the USA is acting like a global gangster, -- they may well get the results they want in the end, but the rest of the world will see them as a slimey low down cheating mob of bastards.

Then again, supporters of Bush and the new American Century of world domination dont really give a shit what the rest of the world thinks.

Funny how when their plans fall down the Yanks always start crawling and reminiscing about all the good deeds they have done to help the rest of the world. Well, Yanks are not known for their modesty anyway.

Not sure the Americans have signed up to all the conventions

Originally Posted by Accidental Ajarn

To sum up this thread

Group 1: America is Bad

Group 2: Not it is nor

Group 1: Yes it is

Group 2: No it is not

Group 1: Yes it is

Group 2: No it is not

Group 1: Yes it is

Group 2: No it is not

Group 1: Yes it is

Group 2: No it is not

Group 1: Yes it is

Group 2: No it is not

Group 1: Yes it is

Group 2: No it is not

Group 1: Yes it is

Group 2: No it is not

Group 1: Yes it is

Group 2: No it is not

etc...

Obviously brain dead with nothing meaningful to say.

Originally Posted by Texpat

The EU incarcerates illegal immigrants for eight years.

Not much whining about that. Gitmo has only been open for six.

And as has been said before on that thread - locking people up for 8 years without due process is wrong - just as wrong as locking them up for 6 years without due process. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Originally Posted by Panda

That could come in handy in certain wars.

I was just following orders is a better one IMO

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by Panda

That could come in handy in certain wars.

I was just following orders is a better one IMO

Of course honesty and integrity is known world wide as the US code of conduct ....

Yes options are good -- on that much we agree.
And Gitmo detainees are beginning to see their options unravel.
Some will go home. Some will remain in jail. For many, I suspect, the halal buffet is quite preferable to your supposed justice.

Originally Posted by Texpat

Yes options are good -- on that much we agree.
And Gitmo detainees are beginning to see their options unravel.
Some will go home. Some will remain in jail. For many, I suspect, the halal buffet is quite preferable to your supposed justice.

You got that right. The food is great and as long as one of them agrees to be the cabin boy, it's all good at GITMO.

Where do I sign up.

Originally Posted by sabang

When you add the moral issues, the loss of prestige, the dubious legality, and the obvious hypocricy of all this to the fact that the people detained in Gitmo have been minor pawns, and all too often innocent anyway- Do you really think GITMO has been worth it Atta?

Add to all this the cost of Gitmo, and the ongoing legal bills- wouldn't it have been better just to have used good old fashioned Constitutional due process? What started out as an expedient short cut is turning out quite the opposite.

Minor pawns? How did you come to that conclusion? They have been moving people in and out of GITMO. Innocent? Do you mean people who may have had a disagreemet with their neighbor who then turned them in as terrorists? It says alot about the treachery over there doesn't it? That's the kind of lies we must sort out.

And to think some people think it's fine for the US to pull out of Iraq and leave the Iraqi army to call in US air strikes for support. I can see it now; a whole family killed because three days before they haggled with a soldier over the sale of a used pickup truck. More civilian deaths blamed on the USA. That's the route Obama wishes to take us.

US troops fight in uniform. Enemy combatants don't. EC must be clearly defined. There hasn't been a clear definition and the rights of the EC and the rules by which they can be held have not been established. It's something the US government has never had to seriously consider before. They are not criminals and they are not POWs. The court system is determining the defintions and rules. That's how our system works. We are a nation of laws. Woe to those living in interesing times. They are helping to establish precident.

Policy has changed and adapted to the the times. Detainees are bringing lawsuits and if a court determines they were wronged they will be compensated. That's how it works. No one ever said democracy was streamlined and cheap.

I don't think any of us will know the value of GITMO for decades. The struggle with terrorism is going on for the rest of my lifetime. Who knows when information will be released which doesn't compromise ongoing investigations and missions? Scoff and gufaw all you want. I don't honestly know and neither do any of you.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by attaboy

Which western countries? The UK a person can be held for 28 days without charge. Proposed to become 54 days.


The Italian judge ruled there was enough evidence to keep Amanda Knox, a 20-year-old studying abroad in the central Italian city of Perugia, and the two men behind bars for up to one year without charge as the investigation continues into the Nov. 1 slaying of Meredith Kercher.

Local News | UW student implicates boss | Seattle Times Newspaper

As lysander's already pointed out, neither instance bares comparison to Gitmo.

I wasn't answering lysander. I was answering your claim that western nations have due process and habeas corpus. I cited two examples. I could find more exceptions to the general rule of law in western nations, I'm sure. In fact the Italian ruling is for a simple murder case. That tops GITMO.

I haven't missed the point. Wild maniacs flew two planes into the Twin Towers killing 3000 people. We are dealing with a new class of warriors. The president went gung ho on the Taliban for harboring the treacherous and murdering masterminds and their minions. Now that the dust has settled we are sorting things out.

Ok, and how does Iraq and detainees from Iraq fit into that picture?

Our courts are defining a definition of EC and what rights they should be allowed while being detained as well as for how long hey can be detained. See my above post in answer to sabang.

The judicial branch of government is determining the degree at which the executive branch can prosecute the war. Our system works. Woe to people caught up in exciting times.

Again, easy to say the 'system works' when you're not one of the ones that have been caught up in it. What do you think someone held without charge for several years would say to your claim that the 'system works'?

Some if they were required to think about it would be grateful they werent killed at some point. Some if they were required to study our system of government would be grateful it was the hospitality of the USA they endured. If the system didn't work people would be wondering where they went.

I got a question. How much money should should Osama's personal driver and flunky get for being touched by a female interrogator? What would be just and fair?

Doesn't strike me as a very genuine or sincere question.

His lawyer brought it up as an example of his mistreatment. According to his customs he was mistreated. Interregators should be aware of the intricacies of a detainess customs, the intracacies of the habits which a person has grown to be comfortable with and the interregator should avoid ofending or confronting those customs. His customs dictate that it was cruel of them to touch him as he is a righteous religious man. Should he be made whole on this grievance?

There are more American experts on Teak Door than in the halls of every law school, diplomatic mission, think tank and military advisory group worldwide.

Teak Door Issues is the nexus of American consultancy.

well said Tex

Well this 'American expert' thinks, even after discounting all other considerations, that Gitmo just plain hasn't been worth it. It would have been cheaper, and a good deal less controversial, to let the existing legal system handle it. It is a fact that the biggest succesful prosecution thus far has been, umm, a kid who was bin Ladens driver.

That is my opinion, which I am entitled to, and which you can of course have your own differing opinion on collectively. But I have stated my reasons for having my opinion- would it be too bold of me to ask yours? Apart from Atta saying 'we won't know for decades' all I've really been hearing is platitudes like 'the foods good' and 'Gitmo is a holiday camp'.

The driver is the first case. And he's lucky he went first. They very well couldn't give him forty years. It wouldn't leave them any room to sentence the more important people coming up next. Kind of like handing out 9.9s early in a gymnastics competition.

This kid was trusted enough to be Bin Laden's driver. That says something about how dangerous he could be. You can bet he wasn't from Rajistan India and recruited from a taxi stall in Bangalore. He did cooperate with authorities fingering the bigger fish so I hope that is taken into consideration.

If people are asking whether the Bush administration made mistakes, I'd answer have you ever heard of the terms 'snafu" and "fubar"? In real life things don't go like on paper. Humans have a way of wandering and sticking their fingers where they shouldn't. Anyone seen The Bank Job? There's a movie that shows what happens when people get involved with an idea. Some of them were lucky to get out alive.

Originally Posted by Texpat

There are more American experts on Teak Door than in the halls of every law school, diplomatic mission, think tank and military advisory group worldwide.

There are more delusional Americans on TeakDoor than in the halls of the UN, NATO and even the White House

Yes, but Sabang, Ant, your fine self are merely impostors.
If only what you thought mattered ...

^ we are only repeating what everyone else with a brain think,

parrots yes, but hardly impostors