Thread: Are you a Leftie or a Capitalist?

The split in TD member viewpoints is interesting, for lack of a more bombastic word. No matter what the issue (outside of gardening, food and travel, but I'm sure the divide will seep into those sub-fora, too) personal politics rears its heads on social issues, wealth, personal commitments, charity... Shucks, us right-wingers are pretty well out-numbered and trounced at most opportunity for being responsible citizens of the world.
So, why are you left, right or don't care?

do a poll!

Well, are you talking about extremes? Do you mean a leftie communist who would make everyone's pay the same including the laziest members fo society? As for the capitalists do you mean a capitalist who would use child labor and set no minimum wages letting the sick die from their lack of wealth?

We live in a mixed world. You might add are you a person who believes in a mix. Lefties obviously believe more in social issues being solved by governments whereas the extreme right capitalists don't believe in governments doing anything to solve social issues. I would guess in a completely capitalist country all infrastructure would be controlled by an individual. Pure capitalism and communism don't exist.


The world just isn't black or white. If you are an extreme leftist please come over and help me cut my lawn if you are an extreme capitalist please give me your social security benefits.

Of course Left or Right is a question of where you define the centre.
I'd describe myself as a Moderate. Painting with a broad brush, I'm economically conservative, socially liberal.

I believe an affluent society should have minimum wages, social welfare benefits (but not too generous), and a public health system. Employees should have rights, such as the right of collective bargaining. Australia seems about right to me, although that doesn't make it anywhere near perfect. Continental Europe is a bit Left to me (i.e too much Tax), the USA a bit Right (I would not want to have to survive on a minimum wage there). I am very much a Capitalist- respect for private property, Free enterprise and all that.

^I guess I am sort of like you, Sabang. I don't know that much about Europe so I can't comment on it or at least I wouldn't comment on it as being of a single philosophy.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

We are better than that.

Are we? It seems to me self interest is still the prime motivator, so a political system that can incorporate self interest with a degree of social justice/welfare and judicial checks and balances is as good as we can achieve. In the real world, Socialist systems are still highly unequal.

When I'm hard my knob points more to the left than the right.

I can whack off with both hands though but I always find my left is weaker than my right but not as satisfying to use.

Originally Posted by sabang

In the real world, Socialist systems are still highly unequal.

inequality is impossible to resolve, it's just degree of inequality that needs to be resolved, nothing wrong with that.

^ Squirrel you must be in Europe or America because it's 9 am in LOS.



One thing I can say that burns me up about capitalism is that it is pro-creation. The world has so many problems and the world's politicians seem to be silent about the overpopulation issue. Capitalism is just another type of pyramid scheme that needs people to fill the lower ranks to survive. So hardline capitalists in my view will not bring up a word for reducing the human population on the planet. They are in bed with the religious wackos.

Originally Posted by Rattanaburi

^ Squirrel you must be in Europe or America because it's 9 am in LOS.

Tis 11:23 here

Capitalism. The unknown Ideal - Ann Rand

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Butterfly

We are better than that.

Are we? It seems to me self interest is still the prime motivator, so a political system that can incorporate self interest with a degree of social justice/welfare and judicial checks and balances is as good as we can achieve. In the real world, Socialist systems are still highly unequal.

I think at the end of the day, self-preservation is the key issue. Commie, leftie, moderate, right-winger, or true capitalist. ie, if you are starving, would you give the food you just foraged to your neighbour? I don't think so.
I like the right wing sense in that I work hard, support my family, save for my old age future, give to charities I like, and pay taxes (inevitable) that will help folk who are unable to work (not folks who are lazy and refuse to get a job). I do not like to depend on others for charity, but I will give when others are faced with hardships. Hard to do any of that if you depend on the government to support you.
I see right wingers as the creators and job makers. Govts do not make jobs. They can help to create the right climate for companies to set up shop and generate jobs.

well I dress to the left, what does that make me?

Originally Posted by Rattanaburi

One thing I can say that burns me up about capitalism is that it is pro-creation. The world has so many problems and the world's politicians seem to be silent about the overpopulation issue.

Didn't know the third world and China, where populations are booming, were capitalist.

Lets not confuse Capitalism with Laissez Faire- you're falling for an old Right Wing Republican semantic trap.

It is perfectly possible to be Capitalist, and still concerned about social welfare or environmental issues. One thing the Capitalist system has proved capable of is Change from within. Just because the Republican Right is trying to hijack and narrow the debate by describing anything that doesn't agree with their Laissez Faire economic and socially Conservative agenda as anti-Capitalist, or Liberal (which means the same thing through their narrow monocle) doesn't make it so.

As the voting public of the US are about to tell them, I believe.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

I see right wingers as the creators and job makers.

Dunno about that Jet- as far as I can see, most of the self described Right Wingers on TD are employees, not entrepreneurs. Whereas such massive employers as Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are much more Centrist. I am too- and I am a founding shareholder of a company that employs around 400 people.

Furthermore, I draw no social welfare benefits from anywhere- I am entirely self funded. I didn't work in my previous 3 years in Australia, but I drew no government benefits- even funded my own health insurance, couldn't be bothered with the government scheme.

To be Capitalist, you don't have to be Right Wing.

^ Am not. Keep the government confined to doing its job of governing instead of messing with companies' businesses. Sure, the gov needs to be there for intl trade issues, etc, but let cos get on with what they do: produce products, make jobs and generate revenue and profits that trickle down throughout the economy.

Thats Capitalism alright, but unfettered Capitalism all to often leads to monopolistic or anti-competitive practises, abuse of the environment, abuse of employee rights and privileges, shoddy product and safety standards, and so on. Capitalism within a Framework- not Laissez Faire Capitalism, in short.

^ Dunno, Sabang. Look at China-based companies -- no comps, benefits or rights for workers. Capitalist? Today, most companies in the west seem to treat employees pretty fairly (ok, Wal-Mart aside), but in order to make a profit, many big corps only hire PT workers now to avoid union-type benefits that cripple the company.

Originally Posted by Rattanaburi

^ Squirrel you must be in Europe or America because it's 9 am in LOS.



One thing I can say that burns me up about capitalism is that it is pro-creation. The world has so many problems and the world's politicians seem to be silent about the overpopulation issue. Capitalism is just another type of pyramid scheme that needs people to fill the lower ranks to survive. So hardline capitalists in my view will not bring up a word for reducing the human population on the planet. They are in bed with the religious wackos.

Who's going to pay the taxes to fund the programs? Corporations? Where do they get their income from? The government? Where does the government get it's revenue from? The corporations? Suddenly, I feel so obsolete.

" From each according to his ability, to each according to his need "

My governement decucted 52% on my income(taxes, social security,solidarity contributions....) and this during 32 years, now I am retired and paid by my governement but they still deduct 20% , of course there are misuses, some people will benefit from this system but I am sure they are not the majority.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Dunno, Sabang. Look at China-based companies -- no comps, benefits or rights for workers. Capitalist?

Absolutely, a great example Jet- self described Communist China in actuality has a much more Laissez Faire business regulatory environment than the West. It is gradually changing of course- many Chinese are sick (literally) of wallowing in their own filth. It is more reminiscent of our Laissez Faire economies of the late 19th century than the Democratic West today. And like the West before it, I expect it will change to a more regulated environment over time.

^ True, Sabang. Not much govt regs to help the workers. Don't think its changing, tho. The owners just focus on cash flow. Screw the workers -- plenty more where they came from.
^^ Doesn't always happen, Lambik. If the safety net is there, lots of folks will use it and let the doers create and generate and pay taxes to support them. Yep, I pay big taxes, too.

Originally Posted by sabang

Capitalism within a Framework- not Laissez Faire Capitalism, in short.

That's basically what modern socialism is about, responsible capitalism, not shotgun "laissez faire" capitalism