Thai navy to purchase submarines

**sabang** · 29-03-2011, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney

the educated few

I'm still looking.

**SteveCM** · 29-03-2011, 11:47 PM

Someone just asked me on Twitter whether anyone in the Thai navy can read German (manuals, controls etc).

Answer: No probs - here in Thailand they get everything with "sub"-titles......

(Sorry!)

**genghis61** · 30-03-2011, 07:36 PM

in the bargain world of old military hardware, how about one more aircraft carrier - at least this one works

Ark Royal Goes Up on MoD Auction Site
Published: Tuesday, 29 Mar 2011 | 5:34 AM E

The aircraft carrier H.M.S. Ark Royal, taken out of service this year as part of government budget cuts, is being put up for sale online by the Ministry of Defense.

The Royal Navy carrier, which was decommissioned in Portsmouth earlier this month, is being sold on edisposals.com, a website run by the MoD’s Defense Equipment and Support arm.

The MoD said on Monday night that individuals and organizations interested in purchasing the navy’s former flagship, which was launched by the Queen in 1981, have to submit their proposals for the ship to the MoD for approval.

“We need to be assured of the viability of the person or organization... including how they intend to store, maintain and dispose of the ship before the sale can be agreed,” DE&S spokesman Tim Foreman told Reuters news agency.

Proposals for the aircraft carrier, which traveled 621,551 nautical miles over the course of its career, include mooring it in London for use as a helipad.

Interested parties have until June 13 to submit their bids and the ship will be handed over to its new owner by the end of the year.

Its decommissioning will mean the UK will be without an operational carrier until about 2020.

*****
HMS Ark Royal
The last vessel was the fifth vessel to bear the proud name. Ark Royal was built by Swan Hunters Ship Builders' yard at Wallsend in December 1978 and launched by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother. HMS Ark Royal was accepted into service on 1 July 1985 and finally Commissioned, again by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother on 1 November 1985.

an earlier Ark Royal (1587), may differ from the one for sale

**sabang** · 30-03-2011, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by genghis61

We need to be assured of the viability of the person or organization

The Germans certainly don't. Caveat emptor.

**robuzo** · 31-03-2011, 03:02 PM

"Its decommissioning will mean the UK will be without an operational carrier until about 2020."

Oh, no! Hope nobody tells the French!

**SteveCM** · 02-04-2011, 05:05 PM

^Ah, yes - the French.....

Bangkok Post : We all live in a second-hand submarine!

Opinion > Opinion

Published: 2/04/2011 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: News

Gunfire rattled across the deck of the French gunboat Comte as the crew continued to push their way further into Bangkok and closer to their target: the Grand Palace. Thai naval boats intent on putting a stop to the enemy's advance rushed down the Chao Phraya River loaded with canons, ready to stop the French at any cost. Then after a three-month stalemate, Thailand finally gave in to French demands and on Oct 13, 1893 the Franco-Siamese Treaty was signed. The events of the Franco-Siamese war were the last notable time that Thailand took part in naval warfare.

We can all sleep soundly knowing the navy is out there patrolling the Gulf with submarines that will ensure our safety.

Skip forward 118 years. The Thai navy is currently in the process of ensuring that we never suffer such a humiliating defeat in Thai territory again. After 60 years of planning, the navy may finally get the weapons of their dreams _ a fleet of six shiny, new submarines.

Except they are not new, they are not shiny and I can't for the life of me think what we are going to use them for.

Let's start with the reasons for the purchase. Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban has defended the purchase, saying that the 7.7-billion-baht procurement is "necessary for maritime territory protection", and that "some countries in the region have submarines and could pose a threat to the national interest".

Does this mean that we need these machines to defend us against possible attacks from foreign submarines? That doesn't sound right. I've seen enough movies and read enough Wikipedia articles to know that if you want to stop a fighter plane, you use anti-aircraft missiles. If you want to stop a tank you employ anti-tank warfare. Surely if you want to fight a submarine you need anti-submarine weapons, not more submarines? On top of that, an RUR-5 Anti-Submarine Rocket (ASROC) costs only around 11 million baht; we could buy 20 of those and use the rest of the 7.7 billion to pay our soldiers a decent wage.

The second problem is we are buying second-hand equipment! The six U-206 class submarines are 30-year-old German vessels that are about to be decommissioned. Is the navy confusing war weapons with audio equipment? Do they think the classic design and analogue input make them look cooler? Why doesn't the government look into buying a second-hand nuclear reactor from Japan while they are at it? And the icing on the cake? Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwon was quoted as saying that because of limited funding the navy would have to "settle for" used goods.

One would think that when it comes to talking about national security the words "settle" and "for" should never come up.

Okay, so let's say we have these six second-hand submarines that are really of any use only against weaker countries, whose equipment is even worse than ours. If there are no wars for them to fight in, what can a submarine do? Most other military vehicles aren't only used for killing. In fact many do the complete opposite _ they rescue people. How many people can a submarine rescue? Don't answer that, I'm sure there is a clever answer, but I hope you get my point.

Looking at the navy specifically, at times of peace (because Thailand has no official coast guard) military boats help patrol the county's coastlines and provide assistance to ships in need. Take the recent flooding in the South as an example. The HTMS Chakri Naruebet was sent out to rescue people stranded on islands like Koh Tao. Arguably a much better use of military resources than sending submarines out to lie on the seabed because they can't operate in the shallow waters of the Gulf of Thailand, meaning they are not even much use at patrolling.

So again, why buy these submarines? Boats are infinitely more useful, especially as Thailand and the world continues to suffer from the onslaught of natural disasters. With the alarming frequency of earthquakes, tsunamis and flooding, investing in more practical purchases would be far more prudent, would it not? As I mentioned, using Chakri Naruebet as a rescue ship has proved useful. Unfortunately it is Thailand's only aircraft carrier, meaning that we have only one ship large enough to rescue an entire island's populaton as well as provide the air assistance needed to get them to the safety of the ship. Hands up if you would rather your tax money was spent on rescue ships instead of an underwater missile launcher.

In the end, who is going to tell us why? If we were to ask the government, those responsible for the approval of military spending, the answer is obvious. They are willingly giving taxpayers partial ownership of a submarine, because they want to keep the military happy _ and we all know why that is.

The navy's answer is that they want to use the submarines to defend Thai maritime territory; however it is likely that, like me, most of you don't buy that for a second. In Thailand things only ever happen because someone in a suit stands to benefit.

If the military could just be honest about that, maybe we could wrap this mystery up once and for all?

Arglit Boonyai is Multimedia Editor, Bangkok Post.

**SteveCM** · 04-04-2011, 08:37 PM

Not a lot that's new in this article, but the (sub-)title is a gem - and you get to see a pic of what's left of Thailand's previous sub fleet/flotilla/unit.....

..........

Asia Sentinel - Thailand in Market for German Subs

Written by Gavin M Greenwood Monday, 04 April 2011

Down to the Lawn in Ships

Das Baht

At the front of the Thai navy museum at Samut Prakan, some 20 miles downriver from central Bangkok, the conning tower and fore deck of a submarine appears to break through the manicured lawns and move purposefully towards the busy Sukhumvit Road.

The blue-grey steel structure is all that remains of His Thai Majesty's Ship Matchanu and Thailand's submarine service, a four-boat flotilla purchased from Japan in 1938 and decommissioned in 1951. The submarines were never in action against an enemy. Their finest hour instead came when their engines provided intermittent power to Bangkok's tram system after the city's electricity supply was disrupted by allied bombing raids towards the end of World War II.

In late March 2011, 60 years on from the decommissioning of the Matchanu and the other three boats – a full cycle in the Buddhist calendar – the Thai government announced plans to acquire six 30-year old surplus German navy submarines at an initial cost of around US$257 million. The small diesel-electric U-206A class boats were built for service in the confined seas of the Baltic, making them seemingly ideal for operations in the shallow waters of the Gulf of Thailand.

The purchase price of boats is merely the start of what would prove a costly and protracted development program to rebuild the Royal Thai Navy's submarine force. If the U-206s are purchased the navy will then have to build at least two bases for the boats - one on the Gulf of Thailand and the other on the Andaman Sea. Each boat carries a crew of around 25 personnel, with a minimum of two plus crews per submarine. An entire support and maintenance infrastructure will have to be developed, trained and deployed at both bases. If all six boats are made operational – allowing one at each base to be always ready for sea, a second on stand-by and a third undergoing maintenance - this implies the creation of submarine arms of at least 2,000 personnel, with the recurring costs this implies.

The utility of submarines to Thailand is disputed, not least by the country's King Bhumibol Adulyadej. In December 2007, in response to the navy's annual demand for submarines, the king noted in his birthday address that the boats were unsuitable for the country as the Gulf of Thailand was to shallow for them operate and that they may become stranded in the mud. The navy politely responded by saying the monarch's advice would be considered in any future plans to acquire submarines.

The strategic purpose of the boats is also contested. Thailand has extensive maritime interests, including offshore natural gas fields and a huge fishery, as well as unresolved boundary disputes with neighbouring countries. These roles are already being met by surface warships and land-based aircraft, which offer effective and proportionate means to patrol Thailand's territorial waters and offshore extended economic zones. In addition, surface vessels have enabled Thailand to participate in such international operations as the present anti-piracy mission in the Indian Ocean and off Somalia.

Further, Thailand's most credible external threats to national sovereignty relate to disputed land boundaries with Burma, Laos and Cambodia. Unresolved maritime boundary disputes with Cambodia and Burma occasionally flare up, but are unlikely to result in anything more than a display of overt naval power by Thailand – a function submarines are singularly ill-equipped to achieve.

If the deal goes ahead it will mark the culmination of the Thai navy's persistent efforts to re-establish its lost submarine arm. In recent years the navy's senior brass have routinely made an annual funding bid for submarines, mainly basing their arguments on the steady increase in undersea capabilities by Malaysia, Singapore and more recently Vietnam.

This desire to join Southeast Asia's sub club has drawn widespread condemnation in the Thai media, where it has been characterised as extravagant, strategically irrelevant and linked to the forthcoming elections. The latter criticism rests on the theory that buying ageing German U-boats would appeal to the nationalist vote, concerned that the country was falling behind regional neighbours in terms of naval prowess.

Other less charitable views are concerned that the proposed submarine purchase offered handsome 'commissions' to those involved in the deal, with the timing linked to officials hedging their bets against an unfavourable outcome in this year's proposed elections and the destabilising consequences that are likely to follow – whatever the outcome.

This explanation is plausible given the record of past defence procurement decisions that offered little additional capability to the armed forces – and in some case placed military personnel in danger – while raising widespread suspicions that individuals had benefitted greatly at the expense of public funds.

Some of the Thai armed forces' previous eccentric purchasing decisions have invited ridicule and rage in equal measure. These include buying a US$11.5 million US-manufactured airship intended to serve as an intelligence-gathering platform in the country's deep south, where a bitter insurgency involving Muslim separatists, criminal groups, the security forces and hapless civilians has taken more than 4,400 lives in past seven years. The idea of monitoring the southern provinces from a quiet and economical blimp is sound enough, but the airship's failure to ascend beyond rifle shot range and the steady escape of its helium gas rendered it unserviceable.

The airship, however, represented a model of procurement practice compared to the acquisition of more than 500 British-made 'explosive detectors,' reportedly at the cost of around $40,000 per unit. Investigations by foreign and local scientists and media organisations quickly concluded that the devices were not merely useless but extremely dangerous to troops or police using them as they offered a false sense of security.

Accusations of fraud were made against the manufacturer and corruption against those in Thailand who had ordered the device, but a few years on no obvious progress has made in ascertaining either charge.

The navy's past judgment is also in question. In 1997 the navy took delivery of the Spanish-built aircraft carrier Chakri Naruebet. The ship cost some $336 million, with its six-strong AV8 aircraft (the US version of the British Harrier vertical take-off fighter) adding a further US$75 million or so. The aircraft are now unserviceable and the carrier is occasionally used in humanitarian missions – most recently to rescue tourists stranded by heavy rains on islands in the Gulf of Thailand in late March 2011. Paying for and manning the Chakri Naruebet remains a considerable drain on the navy's resources, which will be further strained when HTMS Angthong, an amphibious support ship now under construction a Singapore yard, joins the fleet in 2012-13.

There is every likelihood that the U-boat deal will go ahead, with the equally probable result that within a decade or so the submarines will be perpetually tied alongside at the Sattahip base, perhaps next to the by then immobile Chakri Naruebet carrier. One of them may even have joined the Matchanu on the lawns of the RTN museum at Samut Prakan, a source of excitement for small boys and a symbol of hubris for the navy.

Gavin M. Greenwood is a security consultant with the Hong Kong-based Allan & Associates firm.

.........

[EDIT : Connection to Asia Sentinel server seems problematic - so the pic of the museum sub may not be visible]

**StrontiumDog** · 05-04-2011, 12:49 AM

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011...-30152544.html

Navy seeking Cabinet nod for submarines, frigates upgrade

By The Nation
Published on April 5, 2011

The Navy is pushing for Cabinet endorsement of projects that require funding of more than Bt16 billion, to buy six used submarines and to upgrade two of its frigates.

Navy commander-in-chief Admiral Kamthon Phumhirun is seeking Cabinet approval of the purchase of six second-hand submarines from the German navy at a cost of Bt7.6 billion, a source said yesterday. He hopes to get a green light before Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva dissolves the House of Representatives, expected in early May.

Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwan is expected to submit the Navy's purchase plan to the Cabinet in a week or two. At a meeting on April 25, the Cabinet approved the Navy plan in principle, as outlined in a classified document.

The plan to buy used German-made submarines has drawn both criticism and scepticism about their worthiness for the job. The subs - being decommissioned by the German navy - are more than 30 years old but are expected to be good for another 10 years.

The Navy is also seeking approval of a Bt7.5-billion budget to upgrade its frigates, the Taksin and the Naresuan. Plans involve equipping the ships with anti-submarine systems, aviation-defence units and additional weapons.

The source said the upgrade would also see data-link systems installed on the frigates to allow smooth communication between the combat vessels, the new Swedish-made Gripen jet fighters to be acquired by the Air Force, jet fighters of allied countries and other ships of the Navy.
However, in the Navy's current request, a data-link system is not part of the upgrade plan - although the suggested budget of Bt7.5 billion is Bt700 million higher than the estimate for a previous Navy project that included a data-link system.

The Navy also plans to upgrade the HTMS Chakri Naruebet at a cost of about Bt1 billion.

**StrontiumDog** · 05-04-2011, 12:50 AM

Navy's costly sub dream needs a lot of explaining

BURNING ISSUE

Navy's costly sub dream needs a lot of explaining

By Avudh Panananda
The Nation
Published on April 5, 2011

The Navy's used submarine shopping plan lacks foresight and will likely lead to higher costs in the future.

The country saw its first submarine deployment in 1938 when four vessels constructed in Japan, including the HTMS Matchanu, took part in coastal battles during the Franco-Siam War and World War II.

The four boats were decommissioned in 1951 due to both a lack of spare parts- because Japan was barred from weapons production - and political reprisal following a Navy-led coup attempt.

And for the past 60 years, the Navy's big dream has been to rebuild its submarine squadron.

In modern ocean warfare, a battle is fought along three dimensions - in the air, on the surface and under water. From a tactical viewpoint, the Navy has a legitimate reason to try to improve its undersea capability.

The Gulf of Thailand covers about 300,000 square kilometres and borders on four coastal states - Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia and Vietnam. About one-third of the area is under continental shelf claims.

Besides the Thai-Malaysian joint development area covering 5,800skm, the conflicting and overlapping areas have yet to be sorted out by the four coastal states.

About three-fifths of the country's total geographical area is territorial waters and exclusive economic zones under the Navy's charge. It is inexplicable that for six decades, the Navy has failed to rally the public behind its planned procurement of submarines.

In the reign of King Vajiravudh, Thais donated Bt3 million, a huge sum in those days, from 1914-1920 so that the Navy could acquire a destroyer, the HTMS Phra Ruang, from England.

Despite the hardships caused by the Great Depression, the public did not want the country's naval defences to be compromised. The Navy should reflect on its current awareness campaign to understand why its public support seems to have waned.

In the last few weeks, the Army has dominated headlines by executing daring rescue missions for flood victims in the South, while the Navy launched a one-off mission by dispatching its flagship helicopter carrier, the HTMS Chakri Narubet, to evacuate some 700 tourists trapped on Koh Tao.

Then the sailors stayed on the sidelines while ground troops carried out relief operations in coastal provinces.

The submarine deployment saga had its beginnings in 1996 when the Navy unveiled its budget plan to buy two patrol submarines from Sweden's Kockums Industry.

Due to suspicion of irregularities in the Banharn Silapa-archa government, the deal was sunk even before the procurement details emerged.

Despite the setback to the Kockums deal, the Navy has come up with a handful of new proposals in recent years ranging from buying to leasing new or second-hand submarines. The proposals were shot down during inter-agency reviews before they could reach the Cabinet.

The Navy has a lot of explaining to do if it wants the public's blessing for the submarine deployment.

When the procurement plan was hatched, the Navy wanted two new submarines. Suddenly the plan changed to buying six decommissioned U-206As from Germany with an operating life of no more than 10 years.
Four will be deployed while the other two will be kept for spare parts.

After decades of waiting, it does not make sense to spend Bt7.7 billion for submarines destined for burial in the Gulf of Thailand.

Many see the rush to secure the U-206A submarines as a stopgap measure until funds are earmarked in the future for a newer submarine squadron.

The country will end up paying twice - Bt7.7 billion now for the scrapped ships and much more later for their replacement.

**sabang** · 05-04-2011, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Navy's costly sub dream needs a lot of explaining

It is explained in three words. Culture of Impunity.

The only shipping route that Thailand needs to 'protect' is along the shallow Gulf of Siam to the container port at Laem Chabang. These subs are, literally, sitting ducks in the Gulf. There is no logical explanation for this purchase, just vanity and greed. A casual glimpse also raises questions about the excessive price being paid for this mouldering flotilla- but of course, it would be amazing if this were not the case. TIT.

Originally Posted by SteveCM

Das Baht

Das Broke.

Seeing as our friends the French have come up, I'll mention another military fiasco this ranks with. The Maginot Line.

**StrontiumDog** · 19-04-2011, 03:02 AM

Bangkok Post : Navy takes aim at Korean subs

Navy takes aim at Korean subs

Published: 19/04/2011 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: News

The navy would be happy to buy South Korean submarines instead of used German ones as instructed by the defence minister if the South Korean ones were brand new.

Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwon has proposed that the navy buy two submarines from South Korea instead of ordering six used ones from Germany, a source at the Defence Ministry said yesterday.

Gen Prawit believed it would be more worthwhile getting the South Korean submarines than six used German Type U-206A class ones. The price tag for the German submarines was estimated at 7.7 billion baht but they may be usable for only another six or seven years. Buying brand-new submarines would be more beneficial although the cost is higher.

The two South Korean submarines could cost over 40 billion baht and require a tied-over budget spanning years.

Gen Prawit proposed diesel-electric submarines of the Type U-209 class built by Hyundai. South Korea bought submarine technology from Germany to make the vessels for global markets.

A submarine of the Type U-209 class has a displacement of 1,200 tonnes and require a crew of 30. It is bigger than the navy's previous choice of the Type U-206A class that displaced 450 tonnes and needed 20 crew.

According to a navy source, the navy would have no problems with the South Korean submarines if they were brand new as they were based on German technology.

Earlier, the navy proposed buying used German submarines because it wanted to keep abreast of submarine technology and catch up with other countries.

Previously, South Korea had tried to sell the navy two submarines priced at 20 billion baht each even though the vessels had been in use for 20 years and had about 15 years of useful life left, the source said.

"If the defence minister proposes the navy buy brand-new submarines developed with German technology, that will be interesting. But if that costs more than 40-50 billion baht, the government may not approve it and the navy will end up without any submarines," said the navy source.

The source said Gen Prawit had discussed the issue with South Korean authorities in South Korea two weeks ago. He would raise the matter at a meeting of the Defence Council this month and ask the cabinet to approve the purchase in principle before the House is dissolved.

**SteveCM** · 22-04-2011, 06:35 PM

Bangkok Post : Navy still wants 6 German submarines

News > Security

Published: 22/04/2011 at 03:54 PM
Online news: Local News

The navy still wants to buy six used Type U206A submarines from Germany, because they are most suitable for its needs, navy chief Admiral Kamthorn Poomhiran said on Friday.

Adm Kamthorn said the Type U206A submarine is most suitable for the Thai navy because it is small and agile, with a displacement of only 450 tonnes.
Moreover, the six submarines would cost the navy only 7.7 billion baht.

"I can guarantee that they can be in commission for more than 10 years," he said.

Navy chief Kamthorn Poomhiran

Adm Kamthorn said this type of submarine is far better than the Type U209 submarines which the navy earlier hoped to buy from South Korea.

Korea bought the submarines, which are much bigger at more than 1,000 tonnes displacement each, from Germany and had them refurbished.

Two Type U209 submarines would cost the navy 13 billion baht, which is far more expensive than the Type U206A from Germany, he said.

"The 7.7 billion baht to buy six Type U206A submarines from Germany is worthwhile, to protect the country's yearly marine interests of more than 900 billion baht," Adm Kamthorn said.

The navy chief said a proposal to buy six submarines from Germany would be forwarded to the Defence Council meeting chaired by Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwon next week for approval.

If approved, the proposal would be tabled for cabinet consideration.

He said the navy plans to buy the submarines with its own four-year tied-over budget.

Vice Admiral Taweewut Pongpipat, assistant navy chief-of-staff for tactical operations, said the navy plans to use two submarines in the Gulf of Thailand and two in the Andaman Sea, while two others would be used for rotation.

He said the navy has already selected the first batch of 30 naval personnel for training in Germany for one year before the submarines were handed over.

The submarines the Thai navy plans to buy are still in operation, and not decommissioned yet.

"If we don't buy them, Chile and Colombia would," Vice Adm Taweewut said.

Malaysia now has two submarines in commission and Singapore has four, a navy official said.

Vietnam already has four submarines and is reported to be negotiating to buy six more at a cost of US$4 billion from Russia, while Burma has already trained its sailors for submarine operations, the official said.

Writer: Wassana Nanuam
Position: Reporter

**SteveCM** · 25-04-2011, 04:50 PM

Bangkok Post : Nod for used submarines

Breakingnews >

Published: 25/04/2011 at 04:39 PM
Online news: Local News

The Defence Council on Monday approved the navy's plan to buy six used Type U206A submarines from Germany for 7.7 billion baht.

Col Thanathip Sawangsawng, the defence spokesman, said Adm Kamthorn Poomhiran, the navy chief, spent one hour and 40 minutes to explain the acquisition plan to the council, chaired by Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwon.

Council members were satisfied with the reasons given by the navy - to protection the country's interests in the sea, to increase the potential of submarines of Asean, and to keep the military power in the region in balance.

If the acquisition plan is also approved by the cabinet, the submarines are expected to be put in commission in mid-2013.

Col Thanathip said the plan in detail will be presented to the Defence Council for next month. A special conference may also be held for the press.
The Defence Ministry will push for cabinet approval of the plan as soon as possible, he added.

Writer: Wassana Nanuam
Position: Reporter

**Mid** · 25-04-2011, 04:57 PM

7,700,000,000 / 100 = 77,000,000

thus 77 million bhat / minute

or if you like 128,333 / second .

**StrontiumDog** · 26-04-2011, 02:57 AM

Bangkok Post : Navy wins big battle for U-boats

Navy wins big battle for U-boats

Defence panel gives nod to sub purchase

Published: 26/04/2011 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: News

<snip>

They were also satisfied with the navy's choice, the U-206 A German-made submarines, he said.

Col Thanatip said the navy stressed three reasons for needing submarines - to protect national and marine interests, to strengthen the capacity of submarines in Asean and to ensure a balance of military power in Asean.

Malaysia deploys two French-made ones, Singapore has four and Vietnam has three, with a plan to buy six more from Russia. Even Burma has already had its soldiers trained in submarine operations."Even though the submarines are old, they are suitable to conditions in the Andaman Sea. The depth and clarity of water doesn't affect its functionality. The key is that the German submarines have integrated weaponry systems," he said.

<snip>

He added that a briefing might be held at a later stage to address concerns that have been raised after the procurement plan was unveiled, including why the navy is buying decommissioned submarines with only a few years left in service instead of new ones.

"Why did we go after old subs? Because the old submarines are within our budget. Earlier, we had planned to spend more than 40 billion baht, but that would be enough for only two new submarines, like the South Korean Type U209 submarines," said Col Thanatip. "For this project, we will spend only 7.7 billion baht and get six submarines, not to mention a logistics system."

Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwon had earlier floated the idea of buying two brand-new South Korean submarines instead of the German ones.

Col Thanatip said the Defence Council would forward the procurement plan to the cabinet for approval as soon as possible because it understands the navy's requirements and agrees with them.

**Mid** · 28-04-2011, 03:38 AM

"The Defence Council didn't approve the submarine purchase, only acknowledged it," Noppadon Inthapanya, secretary to Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwon, said yesterday.

snipGen Noppadon said yesterday with only one cabinet meeting left before a House dissolution, the procurement is unlikely to be approved by the current administration.

"I think it will be quite difficult for the defence minister to bring the matter before the cabinet meeting next week [May 3]," he said.

Bangkok Post : Plan to buy old U-boats sparks signs of conflict

**SteveCM** · 04-05-2011, 12:34 PM

From Twitter today:

WassanaNanuam Wassana Nanuam

Conflicts among navy and defence minister after the cabinet ended late last night without submarine for navy on the meeting table.

1 hour ago

[Note: Wassana Nanuam is Bangkok Post's reporter on defence matters]

**The Bold Rodney** · 04-05-2011, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by SteveCM

Conflicts among navy and defence minister after the cabinet ended late last night without submarine for navy on the meeting table.

Must have been a pretty "big meeting table"?

**The Bold Rodney** · 04-05-2011, 01:31 PM

Quick question for "pupa" are these subs going to re-painted Yellow?

**genghis61** · 14-05-2011, 07:34 AM

Kamthorn says he'll ask next govt to buy old German subs
Published: 14/05/2011 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: News

The navy chief is insisting he will ask the new cabinet to reconsider his proposal to buy six second-hand submarines from Germany.

Adm Kamthorn Phumhiran yesterday admitted he had been disappointed that the purchase of the submarines had not been tabled for the Democrat-led cabinet's approval earlier. He was not disheartened, however.

Adm Kamthorn said he would ask the German firm which the navy planned to buy the second-hand submarines from to wait for a while. The navy would seek cabinet approval for the 7.5-billion-baht purchase again.

"I'll ask the government to understand the needs of the navy and their children who would be deployed in a war to protect the country's sovereignty ... Otherwise, we will have to wait for the next government," said Adm Kamthorn.

"Give them [naval officers] the chance to win a war. Don't let our ships be sunk by other ships that we cannot see," added Adm Kamthorn.

He said the navy had planned to buy submarines for 60 years, but successive governments had never given it enough money. The navy's current attempt to buy submarines was its third.

Adm Kamthorn said giving the navy and its officers equipment that could help them win wars or defend themselves was not harming the country. The navy just wanted to strengthen Thailand's defensive capacity and it had no plans to harm anybody.

Earlier, the navy asked the government for 48 billion baht to buy submarines but the cabinet ruled that this budget was too high and told the navy to lower the amount.

"Eventually, we brought the figure down to 7.5 billion baht. The whole fleet will get everything. And we will do it for the public. We don't get a single baht from the project," said Adm Kamthorn.

The navy has already informed the government and the public about the facts of its submarine project. The government should trust the information as it was the only agency in the country with sufficient expertise in this area.

**sabang** · 14-05-2011, 08:40 AM

I know something of subs. Even when they aspirate in the shallow Gulf, they are sitting ducks and it would require nothing more than a Cessna.

**Mid** · 14-05-2011, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by sabang

nothing more than a Cessna.

whose effectiveness has already been demonstrated in Libya .

**SteveCM** · 14-05-2011, 12:12 PM

^^^

Originally Posted by Bkk Post

We don't get a single baht from the project," said Adm Kamthorn. The navy has already informed the government and the public about the facts of its submarine project. The government should trust the information as it was the only agency in the country with sufficient expertise in this area.

At least he didn't try the one about accepting his word as an officer and a gentleman.... I imagine that would have seriously taxed his audience's ability to keep a straight face.

**Thetyim** · 14-05-2011, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by SteveCM

We don't get a single baht from the project

I would be very surprised if he did get a single baht.
A truck load would be more like it.

**The Bold Rodney** · 14-05-2011, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by genghis61

Earlier, the navy asked the government for 48 billion baht to buy submarines but the cabinet ruled that this budget was too high and told the navy to lower the amount.

Sounds reasonable dare I say it? even sensible.

Originally Posted by genghis61

"Eventually, we brought the figure down to 7.5 billion baht. The whole fleet will get everything. And we will do it for the public. We don't get a single baht from the project," said Adm Kamthorn.

Hell of a reduction Khun Admiral... what was it "buy one" get the rest free?

Can you belive anything these people say..."do it for the public" what are they going to do for the public? pleasure trips around the gulf?

Complete nonsense!

Thread: Thai navy to purchase submarines

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